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Old 03-19-2010, 06:02 AM   #1411
gasgaseffinfast
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Thanks Moronic and Pooch, glad I was helpful on some level. All of the US journos were jet lagged to some degree, but that bike woke me right up!
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:35 AM   #1412
Bubba Satori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
I'll take a whack at the old "why would anyone want a smaller engine with less horsepower" piñata. Here is my opinion. Some have already been covered by me and others such as a, hopefully, lower weight, better gas mileage, cheaper insurance (most rate on displacement) and cheaper price tag (to which you can spend the money on adding ABS, saddlebags, etc).

Here is my take on the hp thing. I have a heck of a lot more fun ringing the neck on a less powerful bike than riding around a hyper performance bike at 1/2 it's ability. To me, that is boring. Just knowing it's there, but not being able to use it in 95% or more of my riding situations, doesn't do it for me. So I catch myself riding harder and faster than I should be just to get the feeling that the bike is working a little bit. I'd rather be holding the throttle to the stop, or close it it, and really challenging myself to carrying speed through corners and riding techniques than falling into the trap of relying on whacking open the throttle on a 150 ponies. (yes, yes, I know you can use proper riding technique with 150 hp. My point is deeper than that).

I realize there are stretches where I could hold the throttle wide open for a few seconds, but then I'm way over 100mph. Fun? Yes! I love acceleration. But I've recently been on a "less than 100hp" kick and been having a blast. I've re-realized that I really get a kick out of riding a bike at or near it's full potential. Personal preference. Now an 848 based powerplant is no slouch, so really it would only take a few ticks longer to be in that 100+mph range, but I think you can begin to follow my logic on this. I like the thrill of pushing a bike. I ride on the street and not a racetrack. The only way to have the two together is riding a bike without crazy hp numbers.

I don't question why some prefer 150hp in this bike. Because I get it! Just don't keep asking why some would NOT want 150hp in the bike because it's been covered already. It's not about who is right. It's about preferences. In life, you'll occasionally run across someone with different preferences than you. The horror! Ha. It doesn't mean they have to find something to complain about. Those that mention a preference for a smaller engine are, for the most part, agreeing that this bike rocks. No need to act appalled that they would prefer one part of it be slightly different. Otherwise we'll end up arguing about "why the heck would you NOT buy ABS?!" or some other such preference-based decisions...like red vs. black vs. white and the accompanying goofy little "my color is faster" comments that litter many a motorcycle thread.

So me? I love this bike. The 150hp engine will not keep me from loving it or wanting one. It's just that I'd love and want it even more with a smaller engine.
+1 Well said.

The Monster 696 is Ducati's best selling motorcycle.
I think a 700 or 800 MultiStrada would be a big hit.
It's the one I would want. I think Ducati will do it.
MSRP $12K.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:18 AM   #1413
bross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
I'll take a whack at the old "why would anyone want a smaller engine with less horsepower" piñata. Here is my opinion. Some have already been covered by me and others such as a, hopefully, lower weight, better gas mileage, cheaper insurance (most rate on displacement) and cheaper price tag (to which you can spend the money on adding ABS, saddlebags, etc).

Here is my take on the hp thing. I have a heck of a lot more fun ringing the neck on a less powerful bike than riding around a hyper performance bike at 1/2 it's ability. To me, that is boring. Just knowing it's there, but not being able to use it in 95% or more of my riding situations, doesn't do it for me. So I catch myself riding harder and faster than I should be just to get the feeling that the bike is working a little bit. I'd rather be holding the throttle to the stop, or close it it, and really challenging myself to carrying speed through corners and riding techniques than falling into the trap of relying on whacking open the throttle on a 150 ponies. (yes, yes, I know you can use proper riding technique with 150 hp. My point is deeper than that).

I realize there are stretches where I could hold the throttle wide open for a few seconds, but then I'm way over 100mph. Fun? Yes! I love acceleration. But I've recently been on a "less than 100hp" kick and been having a blast. I've re-realized that I really get a kick out of riding a bike at or near it's full potential. Personal preference. Now an 848 based powerplant is no slouch, so really it would only take a few ticks longer to be in that 100+mph range, but I think you can begin to follow my logic on this. I like the thrill of pushing a bike. I ride on the street and not a racetrack. The only way to have the two together is riding a bike without crazy hp numbers.
Sums up our experience to a "T" and where we're at as well. Talking about carrying corner speed, some of my most fun rides have been on Jodie's DR200 with it's whopping 14HP! It's a blast, you just crank the throttle wide open, hold it there and when you hit a corner, you just lean. Same reason we both love our Triumph twins, they're quick enough to out accelerate most cars, can pass easily, but "feel" fast without going twice the speed limit. Which is one of reasons why I sold my R1200RT, it was just too easy to go too fast without feeling any sensation of speed. I replaced the RT with a half faired Honda CBF (only 94HP ) and at least you feel the wind etc. I think this new Multi would be similar, it has protection but not enough to lose that sense of speed you get from the wind rush etc.

As long as you don't have to wring it's neck, which from everything I'm reading you don't, then I'll be interested in riding it. It could replace the CBF and Scrambler. It would be tempting to have the power and comfort of the CBF but be able to go places I take the Scrambler. I'm intrigued, 150HP or not.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:26 AM   #1414
MookieBlaylock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
. I have a heck of a lot more fun ringing the neck on a less powerful bike than riding around a hyper performance bike at 1/2 it's ability. .
definitely, but that 150 hp probably means very ez cruising in the 80 -100 mph range while the 90 horse bike begins to get a little rough relatively.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:34 AM   #1415
Chadx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gasgaseffinfast
Problem is a smaller displacement engine would still weigh roughly the same as the 1200 if it was liquid cooled.
Agreed. ...and could weigh even more if the exact same block crank, connecting rods, etc were used and just a smaller bore with the same stroke. A lighter version of the engine is probably just wishful thinking on my part because it wouldn't make financial sense for Ducati to tool up for an all new block, crank, etc. to lighten this water pumper. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is anything more than a very minor weight difference between the 848 and 1098 engines? [Edit: Kind of found an answer. Can't be much since overall weight is only 11lbs difference. Lower reciprocating mass would be a nice side effect, though. "The 848 benefits from a series of reductions, not only in overall weight at 11lbs from the 1098, but also in a dramatic loss of reciprocating mass of almost thirty-seven percent within the 848's engine".]

As gg mentioned, an air cooled version would be interesting (796), but only if Ducati tweaked it to allow for the extended recommended service intervals of this engine. Those 15,000 mile intervals are a very attractive feature for me.

Regarding a smaller displacement bike costing less, I realise that the manufacturing usually isn't any cheaper, but manufactures seem to always accept a lower price-point for smaller displacement versions of the same bike. I suppose that is because it targets a slightly different audiance (those of us with less money besides other things!)

There is probably some algorithm to determine if a smaller engine/pricepoint would generate enough additional sales to make it worth creating and I'm guessing the result for this bike would, unfortunately, be no. On a bike this expensive, I don't think a price reduction of $1 - $2k will break the camels back and make someone NOT buy. I also think that a smaller displacement version would canibalize 1200 sales rather than making buyers choose this bike over another manufacturers offering. So while I understand why Ducati wouldn't ever plan to come out with a mid-engined multi, I still wish for it.

Chadx screwed with this post 03-19-2010 at 08:44 AM
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:00 AM   #1416
bross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
Agreed. ...and could weigh even more if the exact same block crank, connecting rods, etc were used and just a smaller bore with the same stroke. A lighter version of the engine is probably just wishful thinking on my part because it wouldn't make financial sense for Ducati to tool up for an all new block, crank, etc. to lighten this water pumper. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is anything more than a very minor weight difference between the 848 and 1098 engines? [Edit: Kind of found an answer. Can't be much since overall weight is only 11lbs difference. Lower reciprocating mass would be a nice side effect, though. "The 848 benefits from a series of reductions, not only in overall weight at 11lbs from the 1098, but also in a dramatic loss of reciprocating mass of almost thirty-seven percent within the 848's engine".]

As gg mentioned, an air cooled version would be interesting (796), but only if Ducati tweaked it to allow for the extended recommended service intervals of this engine. Those 15,000 mile intervals are a very attractive feature for me.

Regarding a smaller displacement bike costing less, I realise that the manufacturing usually isn't any cheaper, but manufactures seem to always accept a lower price-point for smaller displacement versions of the same bike. I suppose that is because it targets a slightly different audiance (those of us with less money besides other things!)

There is probably some algorithm to determine if a smaller engine/pricepoint would generate enough additional sales to make it worth creating and I'm guessing the result for this bike would, unfortunately, be no. On a bike this expensive, I don't think a price reduction of $1 - $2k will break the camels back and make someone NOT buy. I also think that a smaller displacement version would canibalize 1200 sales rather than making buyers choose this bike over another manufacturers offering. So while I understand why Ducati wouldn't ever plan to come out with a mid-engined multi, I still wish for it.
And I guess bottom line is, it sounds like Ducati have already given you the bike you want. You only want 100HP on the street? you got it, just leave the engine map in urban mode.
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:04 AM   #1417
Moronic
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If they come out with a smaller version, it needs to be air-cooled, wear 21-18 spoked wheels and weigh 160kg tops.

Cut the fancy electronics, traction control, ABS and hard bags but offer soft bags and keep a bit of quality in the suspension.

They'd sell a few of those, I am guessing
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:39 AM   #1418
996DL
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Adventure riders, like any motorcyclist, are naturally big dreamers and sweet dreams will quite often include incarnations, that just plainly wouldn't cut it in mass production. Unfortunately bean counters rule and previous attempts by major manufactuers to target the niche market, has resulted in extremely short lived models: 1200HP2 and 950SE/R come to mind.

Despite denials by Ducati, after several years of successful sales of the MS1200, production of a MS848 could probably come about, somewhat like the 796 Hypermotard.

I can't see the investment going to waste, in the rather radically improved 1100 EVO motor featured in the 2010 Hypermotards, without it not appearing in other models down the road. Whether that'll include a Multistrada variant, or the dreamed about niche model adventure bike so often spoken of in our forums, time and the current sales success of the MS1200 will have a role in...

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Old 03-19-2010, 12:26 PM   #1419
Chadx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MookieBlaylock
definitely, but that 150 hp probably means very ez cruising in the 80 -100 mph range while the 90 horse bike begins to get a little rough relatively.
I have to disagree with you there if you are saying 90 hp doesn't easily and comfortably cruise at 80 - 100mph. Heck, my wife's 50hp rotax thumper (BMW 650CS) easily runs in that range with plenty of juice to spare. Now if you are talking vibes, etc. that is a whole different matter and is related to number if cylinders, engine design, counter-balancing, engine mounts, etc., but if you are comparing two ducati L motors (one with 150hp and one with 90 hp), I can't imagine there would be a discernable difference regarding vibration or maintaining speed when cruising in that range. Top-gear roll on, yes. But not steady cruising. By the way, I wouldn't be consistantly doing long distance cruising at 80mph or higher, so even if that was an issue with a mid-sized engine, it wouldn't impact me.

Heck, my little bitty minibike (WR250R dual sport) cruises along at 85 - 80mph (actual, not indicated) quite nicely, though it's losing out of breath at that speed (only 25 hp after all).

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Old 03-19-2010, 12:31 PM   #1420
Chadx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bross
And I guess bottom line is, it sounds like Ducati have already given you the bike you want. You only want 100HP on the street? you got it, just leave the engine map in urban mode.
Yes, the "just change it to 100hp mode" comment has been made many times already. There are multiple other reasons posted that many would prefer a mid-sized engine. How would switching to another mode address all of those items?

...and I'm still not sure why everyone seems to be so appalled that there are many that would prefer a mid-sized engine in this bike. I'll reiterate that I love and want this bike. It's just that a mid-sized engine would make it even more ideal for me personally. Why does that bother some people?

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Old 03-19-2010, 12:43 PM   #1421
Chadx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic
If they come out with a smaller version, it needs to be air-cooled, wear 21-18 spoked wheels and weigh 160kg tops.Cut the fancy electronics, traction control, ABS and hard bags but offer soft bags and keep a bit of quality in the suspension.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:49 PM   #1422
bross
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
Yes, the "just change it to 100hp mode" comment has been made many times already. There are multiple other reasons posted that many would prefer a mid-sized engine. How would switching to another mode address all of those items?

...and I'm still not sure why everyone seems to be so appalled that there are many that would prefer a mid-sized engine in this bike. I'll reiterate that I love and want this bike. It's just that a mid-sized engine would make it even more ideal for me personally. Why does that bother some people?
Not bothered at all, remember, I'm one of the ones agreeing with you.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:31 PM   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
I suppose that is because it targets a slightly different audiance (those of us with less money besides other things!)
Those of us with big enough parts to not having to compensate?
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:33 PM   #1424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadx
It's just that a mid-sized engine would make it even more ideal for me personally. Why does that bother some people?
Because it makes some people think they have to explain why they want the big one. They should just say because they need to compensate more, but that doesn't sound attractive enough for crowd ...
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:51 PM   #1425
fixinbones
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Too much arguing over this engine issue. The Multi 1200 is what it is for now. Those who don't want the power can wait for a Multi 848 if it ever is produced. The chances of ever seeing an air cooled Multi are probably slim to none at this point.
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