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Old 09-28-2008, 08:08 AM   #31
Putts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirespokes
I guess you couldn't tell he was joking...

Ah well, perhaps you have to know him better to get it.
Perhaps. Personal threads are a no-no though. Tends to get things moving in the wrong direction.

Nuf o' that, carry on.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:01 PM   #32
datchew OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Putts


Your friendly neighborhood mod.

Don't worry Putts. Me and Wire are buds. We haven't chatted in awhile and he probably didn't realize i was jerking his chain. He helped me with some wiring and such a while back through PM's.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirespokes

The points-in-a-can can be substituted for the hall-sensor-in-a-can ignition quite easily, and I've heard that the world travelers do this for the greater reliabililty. The points are a regular VW high performance item available anywhere, but the coils may need replacing since they'd most likely fry the points after a while unless an ignition booster was added.

Since the stock electronic ignition module is just an amplifier, I'm curious if it would work properly hooked up to a points can?

I'm going to try this exact thing today. I have a points-in-can model on the 1980 that i'm working on.

If anyone has references or solid info on exactly how this works, I'd love to hear it.

Some folks have said just stick in the points can and all will work but you might need a higher ohm coil. I have the 3.3 ohm harley coil. Should do nothing but make a weaker spark.

I'm gonna go look to see if the 1980 bike has a amplifier.



Oh, and guys, never feel bad about polluting my threads. I'm probably offender #1. (I will give you a hard time and wag my finger though... just cause. )


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Old 09-28-2008, 12:08 PM   #34
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FYI

http://www.largiader.com/articles/ignition/

That Anton is one organized fountain of knowledge.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:20 PM   #35
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It's true. The amplifier is nonexistant on the 1979-80 points-in-can models.
Wire goes straight from the condensor to the coil.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:26 PM   #36
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Ok. Conversion complete.

So, at least for the 1989-1990 GS's, all you do is disconnect the amplifier at both ends (plastic square connectors), swap out the bean can, run the black wire from the new points can's condensor up to your coil, and join it to the 2 black wires already going into the coil. Leave the green-blue wire on the coil in place.

Leave the amplifier disconnected (to remove it, i'd have to cut wires and i haven't studied the diagram enough) and you're ready to roll.


The bad news is, I won't get my hall sensor bean can done until probably later this week, or it'll have to wait till november.

The good news is that I can tell a difference going to points. Quicker return to idle, smoother idle, and after running in place for approx 4-5 minutes, nothing shut off. I'll take a long ride tonight and if I have no more hiccups, I'll have validated that the hall sensor (or amplifier) was for sure faulty.

If the hiccups still happen, i'll swap to my spare coil and cuss profusely.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:02 PM   #37
Frank Warner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
The good news is that I can tell a difference going to points. Quicker return to idle, smoother idle, and after running in place for approx 4-5 minutes, nothing shut off.
I'd not use the same coil for points and electronic ignition systems ..

On the points system the coil is 'on' about 50% of the time ..

On an electronic system the coil is only 'on' for enought time to store the energy for the spark .. the coil is 'on' for a far shorter period of time .. so it has less resitance .. draws more current .. and on a point system will get far hotter..

-------------------------------------

If your bm system is turning off after a while of sitting .. I think your 'amplifier' may be over heating .. the heat conductive paste between the 'amplifer' and its' heat sink does go off .. seperate them and regrease with thermally conductive paste - see your electronic store. This is a very easy thing to do.
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:18 PM   #38
datchew OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Warner
I'd not use the same coil for points and electronic ignition systems ..

On the points system the coil is 'on' about 50% of the time ..

On an electronic system the coil is only 'on' for enought time to store the energy for the spark .. the coil is 'on' for a far shorter period of time .. so it has less resitance .. draws more current .. and on a point system will get far hotter..

-------------------------------------

If your bm system is turning off after a while of sitting .. I think your 'amplifier' may be over heating .. the heat conductive paste between the 'amplifer' and its' heat sink does go off .. seperate them and regrease with thermally conductive paste - see your electronic store. This is a very easy thing to do.


Thx Frank. Already cleaned and greased with my special stuff I had leftover from my network geek heatsink days.


One thing to consider, I have the harley coil on my bike. Not the normal post-81 bosch. The harley coil's ohms (checked across primary terminal) match the post 81 coil and the bosch dual coil exactly! They're all coming in at approx .7 (from memory).

So, what's the difference?
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:37 PM   #39
Frank Warner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
So, what's the difference?
A 'points' type coil would have a higher resistance on the primary winding .. I'd think.

Would have to do a web search to confirm ... .. too lazy Those are my thoughts .. sorry but the memory is not that good on geting numbers from the distant past ..

0.7 ohm .. 12 volts P = E^2/R = 144/.7 say 180 watts ... 50% of the time = 90 watts .. alow reductrion due to inductance .. say 20 watts .. still a lot of power .. how hot does that coil run on points?
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:55 PM   #40
datchew OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Warner
A 'points' type coil would have a higher resistance on the primary winding .. I'd think.

Would have to do a web search to confirm ... .. too lazy Those are my thoughts .. sorry but the memory is not that good on geting numbers from the distant past ..

0.7 ohm .. 12 volts P = E^2/R = 144/.7 say 180 watts ... 50% of the time = 90 watts .. alow reductrion due to inductance .. say 20 watts .. still a lot of power .. how hot does that coil run on points?

Ouch. I'd have to look that up too. But the points dual coils resistance match the newer style coil. So... unless something escapes me, it would still be 20 watts.


Any electrical people in the house? you guys know i positively suck at electrons. ya, that was just bad
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:59 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
Don't worry Putts. Me and Wire are buds.
Okie dokie.


(doG, I should get a gig down in the basement where mods actually have something to do. Guess I'll go fix some quotes.)


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Old 09-29-2008, 04:13 AM   #42
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Pssst, hey guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Putts
(doG, I should get a gig down in the basement where mods actually have something to do. Guess I'll go fix some quotes.)
...let's stage a fight to make Putts feel better.
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Old 09-29-2008, 06:43 AM   #43
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...let's stage a fight to make Putts feel better.
GO TO HELL!
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Old 09-29-2008, 06:48 AM   #44
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oh, besides the fight, i rode the beast to work today.
Some notes on the mod to points:

1 - Very noticeable improvement in idle, especially when cold and the choke is off, waaaay down low (too low) it still idles. Hall sensor can did not... might be due to defect. Will compare when it's finished.

2 - No matter how well i tweaked the carbs, there was always a little bit of a jerk... a rough jump off idle when i blipped the throttle (you know... harley style... at a stoplight so everyone can look at me) . That is now gone. It VERY smoothly comes off idle.

3 - At LEAST 15 more horsepower. (yes, that's a joke people)



I'm very anxious now to put the hall sensor can back in to see how things compare. I suspect most of this is just "the way it's supposed to work" and that my can was dirty and failing.


No intermittent hiccups or shutoffs during operation. Almost didn't make it home before taking the old can out.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:34 AM   #45
DucatiPete
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Earlier in this thread i said i was going to put new springs in my trigger can due to the symptom of high/non return to idle. (i had to ride the clutch to drop the engine speed to induce a return to proper idle speed.)

Well, who's the dickhead who ordered parts before properly diagnosing the actual problem!?

err' hmm, yes... So i checked the valves and guess what, both ex valves had totally closed up! Re-set them to spec and everything's hunkydory...

now i have to find out why the valves closed up so much (.006 in less than 5000ks)... i shouldn't be recession as these are new/reco heads that are supposed to have had hard seats installed. I'll check em again after 1000ks or so.

i hate mysteries... especially ones like this!
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