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Old 11-11-2009, 10:00 AM   #76
MotoJim
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It's not the route they are charging for in most cases.

What people are charging for is the time and effort it took to create the gps route, maintain it and distribute it.

Sort of like Red Hat is not charging for Linux but they are charging for the support and delivery of the public domain operating system.

Now if you could buy some GPS routes that took serveral hundred hours to create and put in a format that can be distributed for $29 I think that is a tremendous value.

We live in a time when there is a large number of people who expect something for nothing (Health Care) and we have a government that prints money without any true value backing it (not so good will).

We as a society are due for a major reset.

I personally don't want anything for free.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:07 AM   #77
xKLR_John
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Not sure if Sam is a member here but....

I think he accomplished an awesome thing when he went out and researched and documented the TAT. If one had purchased his maps & roll charts back when they first became available they would have been an awesome value because they were fresh and accurate.

I will one day ride the TAT. When I do, I'll buy Sam's maps just out of respect to the guy who created them. I think what would make his product much more valuable would be UPDATES. Yes, stuff happens and you'll have to reroute but from reading ride reports on here you can see that some detours have been occuring for years. Instead of having 100s of riders make the same corrections over and over, why not fix it once at the source? In the long run I think he's shooting himself in the foot by not updating. If someone has to go grab some GPS tracks to easily complete sections of the TAT because the maps are so out of date, that leads them to wonder what exactly they're buying.

Just some thoughts from someone who's too busy with work/family right now to go ride the TAT but I will one of these days....
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:31 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xKLR_John
I think he accomplished an awesome thing when he went out and researched and documented the TAT. If one had purchased his maps & roll charts back when they first became available they would have been an awesome value because they were fresh and accurate.

I will one day ride the TAT. When I do, I'll buy Sam's maps just out of respect to the guy who created them. I think what would make his product much more valuable would be UPDATES. Yes, stuff happens and you'll have to reroute but from reading ride reports on here you can see that some detours have been occuring for years. Instead of having 100s of riders make the same corrections over and over, why not fix it once at the source? In the long run I think he's shooting himself in the foot by not updating. If someone has to go grab some GPS tracks to easily complete sections of the TAT because the maps are so out of date, that leads them to wonder what exactly they're buying.

Just some thoughts from someone who's too busy with work/family right now to go ride the TAT but I will one of these days....
Good point, has any one contacted Sam? At least point him to this thread.

On Mex2Can I go out almost every year to change the route. Sometimes that involves driving to Idaho for a few days that is very expensive which is one reason why the ride costs what it does. Bottom line you get what you pay for.
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:15 AM   #79
Jeff@TheQuadShop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
Good point, has any one contacted Sam? At least point him to this thread.

On Mex2Can I go out almost every year to change the route. Sometimes that involves driving to Idaho for a few days that is very expensive which is one reason why the ride costs what it does. Bottom line you get what you pay for.
I know Sam, he's not on the computer very much.
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Old 12-31-2009, 09:08 PM   #80
EnduroRdr
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Personally I don't see the harm in sharing tracks/routes etc. Sam doesn't sell you a package for your GPS, he sells you paper. Buy it if you feel guilty, but just because he sold some paper does that make him God of the route?
Like it was said earlier, if I use Google Earth or map quest or whatever to make a route, do they own "my" route? I dont think so! So if someone wants to share "their" tracks then so be it. If Sam is so special to get a cut from every rider that ever rides cross country then he should at least provide updates and do it electronically if he is to be the God of all TAT information. Rand McNally sells road maps - I own several - but if I make a route for my buddy to get from his house to mine using GPS, should I tell him to send some money to Rand McNally because they already had the same roads printed on their paper maps?
When I do ride it I will most likely buy his paper, (to use as additional information) to assist in gaining information, But like others here I'd appreciate the free flow of exchanging new improved routing electronically.
It aint about the damn money for me. Hell share your tracks with me and I'll send you money then you can send it to Sam to clear "Your" continence. All this crap about you must experience transferring it yourself so you get the whole effect, (sounds more like - I worked my butt off several nights transferring it into GPS so you should do the same thing - ), well sometimes it is just nice to save some time and effort and make use of other peoples experiences to better yours. Should I tell my kids to not touch that hot frying pan or maybe they need to learn it the hard way. I guess I should wash my clothes on a rock too instead of using modern washer, you know to get the whole experience.
So now the sparks can fly again!
Guess I just farted in church too -


http://www.miller90.eclipse.co.uk/TA...files/Maps.htm

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Old 01-01-2010, 12:05 AM   #81
ktm530russ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduroRdr
So if someone wants to share "their" tracks then so be it. If Sam is so special to get a cut from every rider that ever rides cross country then he should at least provide updates and do it electronically if he is to be the God of all TAT information.
I agree about 80%. If you were just riding across country, and most of it just "happened" to be on the TAT route, why pay for paper maps? BUT... Sam DID put a LOT of effort to find the dirt options, updated to avoid private property as much as possible, so if you ride THIS route, he should be compensated for it.
The biggest issue/complaint regarding GPS is how to "protect" the intellectual property rights of the person doing the "discovery". Since tracks are so easy to copy and forward, in a short time, a route like this would become "public" as it would be posted EVERYWHERE on the internet. (Maybe Sam could create Electronic maps, and have the riders sign a "non-disclosure" agreement to use them. There are ways to uniquely mark each copy, so if one went "rogue", it could be traced back to the original purchaser)

Now... I TOTALLY disagree with all the posts that state "Roll Charts are the ONLY way to do this ride, with 'maybe' a backup GPS... The main "reason" stated is "looking down at the GPS all the time you will miss the turns". Well, Duh... You will be doing the SAME THING with the Roll charts, looking down and trying to figure out milage and turns...
Your analogy of washing clothes by beating them on rocks, vs. a washing machine is right on... Roll Charts are antiquated, a good GPS (Garmin 60Csx?) works SO MUCH BETTER! (Follow the line... if you are "off" the line, you are not on the trail.)
Argument #2 against GPS... "You might follow a line off a cliff!". Possibly true if you just use a map and create a track, so caution is advised. BUT! If someone has RIDDEN the route, their track will definately NOT run you off the trail.

I think Sam should provide electronic maps/GPS Tracks for this ride, and discard the Roll Charts. Our group in N. California has run a LOT of Dual-Sport rides in the last 18 months, the only two that "failed" were Roll-chart rides... (odometer issues, poor markings on the chart, etc.) ALL of the GPS were "spot on", as the routes were pre-ridden, and the tracks created off of this...

So,
1: Provide GPS Tracks for the TAT!
2: Discard the Roll Charts!
3: Update the Route! (Closed roads in Oregon, Bridges out, Roads removed, etc.)
4: Finish the TAT to the East Coast?

(20 months until my "wrong way" TAT ride, August 13th, 2011!!!)
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Old 01-01-2010, 12:13 AM   #82
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Oh, and one last thing... I will be purchasing Sam's maps in April to start planning, but I do NOT want to hand-transcribe ALL this junk into GPS tracks. (Read some of the other threads regarding doing this, and "missing" the road while drawing the track on MapQuest. or not finding the trail at all...)
Since I am a "Wrong way" rider, it would Double the work to make these. Having GPS tracks of riders who ran the route already would make this a non-issue. (load the track, follow the line "backwards", no dead-end roads, blocked trails, closed bridges, since this would be a previously 'completed' ride...)
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:59 PM   #83
NorthernTraveler
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Drawing the TAT in Mapsource

I can't say it often enough, but you learn ALOT when you transcribe from Sam's roll charts into Mapsource.

I've done it several times.... reworking and updating my routes.

And I've ridden the TAT twice - in pieces in '07, and straight through in '09.

It is NOT double the work to ride it backwards..... after you finish creating your route following Sam's roll chart all you have to do is to have Mapsource reverse the route. One quick step.


OK - here is how I recommend laying out the TAT routes in Mapsource -

1. DO NOT USE AUTOROUTING!!!! Use point to point (or direct) routes only. Turn off auto recalcuate in your GPS.

2. Do one state at a time.... or only extend a state to the next overnight stop.

3. Starting at the beginning of a state, use Sam's maps to place into Mapsource the known locations.... use the milage as the waypoint name.

4. Start at the beginning of a state at a known location follow the roll chart placing a waypoint at each corner on the rollchart. The previously placed known locations will help you keep on track. I like to use waypoints with the milage at that point as the waypoint name.

5. Create routes starting at an overnight stop following your previously placed waypoints and adding via's as needed to follow the roads you want to use. Stop the route at the next overnight stop, and start a new route continuing on..... the last route in a state will carry over into the next state. So, for example, Colorado has three routes starting in Trinidad, Salida, and Lake City. The first 50 miles of Colorado is on the last route from Oklahoma, the last 50 miles of the last Colorado route is in Utah.

6. Add in the gas, motel and camping waypoints as needed.

7. You should have notes on known reroutes on hand as you do this....fix them before you get there. The worst state for reroutes is Oregon - my notes are posted on this thread and are fairly up to date (8/31/09)

8. If you are running it west to east, now is the time to reverse it using Mapsources tool to do so.

NorthernTraveler screwed with this post 01-02-2010 at 08:56 AM
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Old 01-01-2010, 08:22 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduroRdr
Personally I don't see the harm in sharing tracks/routes etc.
You apparently didn't read this thread, because you argue a bunch of irrelevant points, and completely skip over what's important. Someday, if you ever work hard to create something unique that has value, and someone copies it or steals it, you'll understand. Given your ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s ok to steal, my guess is you’ll never understand. It's because of people like you, who have no respect for other people's work, that I keep my rides very tight. Invitation only, respectable people only!
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Old 01-01-2010, 08:50 PM   #85
Countdown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
You apparently didn't read this thread, because you argue a bunch of irrelevant points, and completely skip over what's important. Someday, if you ever work hard to create something unique that has value, and someone copies it or steals it, you'll understand. Given your ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s ok to steal, my guess is you’ll never understand. It's because of people like you, who have no respect for other people's work, that I keep my rides very tight. Invitation only, respectable people only!
+1
On Mexico to Canada, riders must turn in their Roll Chart every night, I set their GPS to not record tracks, and erase their active log and saved tracks every day. This is just because of people with no respect for intelectual property like posted above. The very first year a guy saved our tracks and we found out that his brother-in-law profesional guide used them the next to guide a foreign rider. thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca. We have never let them out since.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:16 AM   #86
intothenew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm530russ
4: Finish the TAT to the East Coast?

I can help with that one, kinda sorta, if you don't mind Hillbilly Homebrew.

The TetNJ and the Twvt will get you from the right coast suds to Jellico or vice versus.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:27 AM   #87
VTRally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
+1
On Mexico to Canada, riders must turn in their Roll Chart every night, I set their GPS to not record tracks, and erase their active log and saved tracks every day. This is just because of people with no respect for intelectual property like posted above. The very first year a guy saved our tracks and we found out that his brother-in-law profesional guide used them the next to guide a foreign rider. thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca. We have never let them out since.
Jerry you and I have been round the barn already in this thread as I was the original church farter.
Your second to last sentence is fairly illuminating to how serious you take this. I am gobsmacked it bothers you that much.
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:46 AM   #88
EnduroRdr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
You apparently didn't read this thread, because you argue a bunch of irrelevant points, and completely skip over what's important. Someday, if you ever work hard to create something unique that has value, and someone copies it or steals it, you'll understand. Given your ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s OK to steal, my guess is you’ll never understand. It's because of people like you, who have no respect for other people's work, that I keep my rides very tight. Invitation only, respectable people only!
Oh please, get off the whollier than tho soap box. With that attitude then I suppose that if you and a buddy were to ride it together then both of you can not share information on the route (buy your own stuff & stop looking at my maps!) I'm not stupid, and I am not suggesting "stealing" - or as you put it - "ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s OK to steal" and yes I understand & my conscience is clear, maybe you should try to open "your" mind and take the blinders off. We all agree that if you create something that you sell, then you want to protect it from getting distributed free. (otherwise its kinda hard to sell it - doh) Patent laws are there for that. Define what you are claiming to protect here! I thought we were talking about gps tracks. BTW HogWild, I did read this thread, if you go back to the first post it is all about asking for GPS tracks.
I'm not suggesting you go post Sam's map and roll chart package on the internet. He has every right to ownership of those and we all respect that, But like I said, if I make a route on "MY' gps that used same suggested route by Google or same roads that are on a purchased map, do they have a rights to the distribution of my gps tracks I made?

Also maybe you should go back and read SAM's website:
He clearly states that his intent is to share this adventure! (key word there is share) and in an effort to make it easier for riders he is providing a package to help people explore this route. That package is his maps and roll charts. I think - if you read this - that he intends "in the spirit of adventure riding" to make it as easy as possible for others to ride this epic route and that he only asks to be compensated for the work and materials "He" can provide you. No where in his site does he make claim to own the route - or gps tracks of it.
As stated I will gladly pay "Him" for "his maps", when I need maps, (which I will do when I ride it) And I think most folks here do that for the additional information from his maps and out of respect for his efforts but that should not prevent the rest of the world from sharing gps tracks and improving upon this route. (on public roads and trails or private lands that are open to public - with no access fees YET!)
I suppose you think your being real noble but I don't think he is that concerned with others sharing gps tracks - otherwise he would be maintaining gps in his packages.

folks - Buy the maps & charts for that information but don't let a few "for profit" tour guides prevent you from sharing "your" information about public routes. Obama has not converted us into communists just yet!

Read it and make you own conclusions. (especially the last part)


Quote from his site:
"The price of my Map & Roll Chart odometer system of navigation is meant only to cover my costs of production and to cover the shipping fees to send to you (shipping fees are included in the price). Mostly, I just want to share this amazing adventure."

See Link---> http://www.transamtrail.com/purchase/

.

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Old 01-03-2010, 07:56 AM   #89
EnduroRdr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
+1
On Mexico to Canada, riders must turn in their Roll Chart every night, I set their GPS to not record tracks, and erase their active log and saved tracks every day. This is just because of people with no respect for intelectual property like posted above. The very first year a guy saved our tracks and we found out that his brother-in-law profesional guide used them the next to guide a foreign rider. thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca. We have never let them out since.
Countdown - +1 - "thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca." WTF ???
Geezzzz if another rider from another group broke his leg would you even send for help when you came up on him? - or maybe that would be bad for business?
Really surprised you could write that one! Your rides sound fun - kinda like a concentration camp! "Attention - hand over you cameras, cell phones & gps, strip search at 9pm then straight to bed men! We will have koolaid for breakfast"
Since you seem to own that part of the world - Just curious, are you making lots of money doing that? (not that I'm opposed to paying for guide service, which yours & HogWilds may well be a great service, but this is still America and I think we are still free to roam by ourselves without the trail Nazi's checking our papers right? - unless they work for the BLM )
By the way do you help riders in your group if they break down? How much would you charge a fellow rider to help him fix a flat when he goes riding with you? Would he get a break on the service charges if he already had all the tools and tube needed with him? (I guess you could always shoot their bike if a flat were going to slow down your 'Invitation only group"), Hey here's an idea for ya, maybe you could sell the video rights to flat fixing? Do you take VISA while out on the trail?

But it's all OK - Morons are people too, and as another ADV rider, if I ever see you out on the trail with a flat (or a broken leg) I'll help you fix it - no charge really!

Hugs & kisses - your buddy the sarcastic SOB.

EnduroRdr screwed with this post 01-03-2010 at 11:58 AM
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Old 01-03-2010, 05:49 PM   #90
HogWild
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I just sent an email to Sam to see what he thinks...

> Hi Sam,
> Are you in favor of or against the free distribution of GPS tracks of TAT,
> that others have recorded while following your maps and roll charts?
> Thanks,
> Scott


And Sam's response...

I am against it. It is wrong and unfair.....there
is no way to prevent this from happening...Free distribution hurts future
developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders.........Sam


That's pretty clear!

It doesn't matter how you copy his unique creation (anything that defines the route TAT follows); photocopy, photograph, hand transcribe, GPS track/route, whatever . . . it's still copying his unique creation. Making a personal copy from your paid for material is fine, but as soon as you provide it to others, or use such copies that others have made, you're stealing from Sam. If you want to make your own route, and by coincidence it hits some of the same roads TAT follows, that's fine, as long as you haven't used Sam's materials (or any form of copies of his materials) to create it. No amount of excuses makes it right to copy and distribute someone else’s stuff or use such copies without their permission. The bottom line is if you are following the very unique TAT route and you haven't paid Sam, you're probably stealing from him. And you're hurting others by discouraging creative hard working guys like Sam from making fantastic rides like TAT in the future. Some people know the difference between right and wrong, some don't.
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