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Old 01-03-2010, 06:27 PM   #91
Black Mesa Offroad
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:38 AM   #92
EnduroRdr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
I just sent an email to Sam to see what he thinks...

> Hi Sam,
> Are you in favor of or against the free distribution of GPS tracks of TAT,
> that others have recorded while following your maps and roll charts?
> Thanks,
> Scott


And Sam's response...

I am against it. It is wrong and unfair.....there
is no way to prevent this from happening...Free distribution hurts future
developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders.........Sam


That's pretty clear!

It doesn't matter how you copy his unique creation (anything that defines the route TAT follows); photocopy, photograph, hand transcribe, GPS track/route, whatever . . . it's still copying his unique creation. Making a personal copy from your paid for material is fine, but as soon as you provide it to others, or use such copies that others have made, you're stealing from Sam. If you want to make your own route, and by coincidence it hits some of the same roads TAT follows, that's fine, as long as you haven't used Sam's materials (or any form of copies of his materials) to create it. No amount of excuses makes it right to copy and distribute someone else’s stuff or use such copies without their permission. The bottom line is if you are following the very unique TAT route and you haven't paid Sam, you're probably stealing from him. And you're hurting others by discouraging creative hard working guys like Sam from making fantastic rides like TAT in the future. Some people know the difference between right and wrong, some don't.
Scott, you make some valid points, and taken in "that simple context" I can completely understand your position and Sam's. I have to assume that is a real response from Sam. And as you put it in those simple terms. I can see and understand the response. (your email to him in it's simplicity implies that it is a direct intent to copy his map route via gps tracks).

Unlike me who talks in riddles and is too often sarcastic. I tend to use extreme (sometimes meaningless) examples to drive a point. But once in a while I manage find a good analogy.

So in those terms: Congrats - You win the volley . I'm not too small to concede that part. Trust me, my intent and long winded bullshit responses are not intended to undermine intellectual property (as such) or belittle the efforts of Sam to establish the route. Although, again assuming that is a real email response, I fail to see how - As Sam put it - "Free distribution hurts future developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders". Seems to me that - Confirming the route using more current gps tracks would HELP future development. I suppose I mostly take offense to others automatically assuming I (or others) only seek to freeload from them. If you ask for tracks, right away a bunch of people respond - you gotta go to SAM, well Sam doesn't provide gps tracks. A lot of folks honestly just want to inject additional resources (as much as they can) into what is often considered the ride of a life time. Most folks asking are not trying to save 50 bucks for that state or even a couple hundred bucks if they intend to ride it all, that is just a drop in the bucket regarding expenses when contemplating that kind of trip, (not everybody will ride the TAT multiple times - some may only do it once ever) and they want to get it right, not just by spending countless hours going cross eyed reviewing maps either, using others proven tracks will often help uncover what could be costly mistakes that may have been avoided if they were to compare their intended or transcribed route to one that someone else has confirmed. Ok, getting long winded again!

But to be fair, I would like your honest opinion on it with a simple twist added (that you left out in your letter to Sam). and would be interested in his reply if you would have added that element of - The gps track recipient having purchased the maps.
Probably driven by my pathetic attempt at some sort of face saving.

Lets assume I had already purchased the roll chart & maps package for the area intended (or all of the route). Would you then approve of sharing tracks from TAT rides with another that can prove he had done due diligence by buying a package from Sam?

Suppose you were shown a canceled check or some sort of proof that is not to easily made up. Maybe a secret hand shake. <-- Ok maybe getting sarcastic again - cant help it it's in my blood. Born a smart ass, probably will die a smart ass.

EnduroRdr screwed with this post 01-04-2010 at 01:55 AM
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:06 AM   #93
HogWild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduroRdr
Although, again assuming that is a real email response, I fail to see how - As Sam put it - "Free distribution hurts future developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders". Seems to me that - Confirming the route using more current gps tracks would HELP future development.
It takes TONS of time to do what Sam, Jerry, and others do to completely document a great ride. Until you've actually created such a work yourself (maps, roll charts, notes, etc), you may not appreciate just how time consuming it is. For me anyway, much of the drive and enthusiasm to do all that work comes from the adventure of exploring new places, seeing new things, etc. Once you've completed the original work, that enthusiasm is gone. Going back to edit and rework all that paper is no fun at all. So, it doesn't get done as well as many wish. Sure, it would be great if a ride like TAT was constantly updated. But who has the time and enthusiasm to do it? I say make the best of what Sam has, or go do something else.

Another great motivator is when people show their appreciation for the hard work put into making the ride. Several hundred dollars payment for roll charts and maps speaks volumes more than an email saying "thanks for sending me the free GPS tracks". Far worse is when there is no acknowledgement at all, when the GPS tracks are floating around the internet for all to grab without even saying thanks. That's like a stab in the back. The more times you get stabbed in the back for the work you do, the less likely you'll be to do that work again. So, when Sam gets stabbed in the back enough times, he'll quit documenting new rides. I feel the exact same way, and it sounds like Jerry (Countdown) feels that way as well. More stabs in the back, less documented rides in the future!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduroRdr
Lets assume I had already purchased the roll chart & maps package for the area intended (or all of the route). Would you then approve of sharing tracks from TAT rides with another that can prove he had done due diligence by buying a package from Sam?
Yes. That sounds great. But in the real world that's impossible to implement without opening the door further to abuse. Sam said basically the same thing in the email I posted. The more a GPS track becomes available, the more it will spread outside the control of the creator. There's no perfect solution to this. "Nazi" Jerry's approach is strong-arm control, which seems to work. Sam has picked a different approach, and he's being stabbed in the back by those who post GPS tracks of TAT, and those who post links to those tracks. My approach is to carefully screen the people who receive my roadbooks, befriend them as much as possible so they would feel bad if they stabbed me in the back, and make sure they understand that distribution of GPS tracks without my permission would hurt everyone.
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:08 AM   #94
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Just jumped in and thought I might make myself a pinata...

This is really a no win argument.

This one is simple - it is the same as copying music... someone writes a tune and you like it and you think it is okay to copy and share it?

That isn't right at all.

Sam created the experience by creating the trail.

This is the same as an artist even sampling another artists song - you can't unless you compensate them for it. Even partially.

But.... BUT... we can't stop the free sharing of the route - simple. It is where we are culturally and some of us will - simple. Sorry but simple.

After all it just comes down to good form - if you are walking behind someone on the street and see them lose a $20... do you stoop down and pick it up and walk away or give it back to them...

Which type of person are you?

My take is this - when I do the TAT this summer I will be talking to a bunch of people and asking for advice and they will be sharing route changes and maybe even some GPS points to get around problem areas or take me to good areas. This to me is cool as some of it concerns safety and the evolution of the route (as it will change by its nature every minute - not as a song does)... This is how nature works and the ride involves constantly changing elements. Either way - just to show my appreciation to the creator I will be buying the maps and paying the money. Just like I can't just go and make an iphone just because I can pull it apart and figure out how it works...

After all without him there would be NO route at all and no TAT and just some dreams.

For that matter it is worth a whole lot more than what he charges.

I know it is dramatic but I believe it when I say... we can't take anything with us when we kick it and if we are going to expend so much effort to live a dream like this - after all this isn't saving any babies or curing cancer... - then pay for it. Or steal it. Your call. But, remember the TAT is a dream realised and shared with you to realise. Given all the posts on here it looks to be pretty important one at that.

If I have a suggestion then I would say to Sam to create a TAT forum on his site to evolve the route - anyone who buys the package also gets access to the forum and can share and evolve the route. All in one place. Then someone who wants to know and learn about it can by purchasing the package. Make the gps points available to those who bought it. You won't get rid of the sharing but it will encourage the growth of the route as well as generating some control and revenue. If he was smart he would sell ad space to the communities and companies along the route. Not too complicated and he might even get some tourism money for it.

But it would in essence change the dream forever as it is now...changing with all of this crap.

Anyway - my two cents.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:48 AM   #95
Black Mesa Offroad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Dean

This one is simple - it is the same as copying music... someone writes a tune and you like it and you think it is okay to copy and share it?
Sort of kind of but not really
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:06 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mesa Offroad
Sort of kind of but not really
It is different for sure... like I said, but not by too much. If he just rode a cool road out west then whatever.... but he worked hard to create an experience... and it is telling that so many of us here want to be a part of it and importantly don't want to figure it out ourselves. That right there makes it valuable.

Nowadays you can buy a song for .99 cents... would you go to the convenience store and walk out with a chocolate bar? Just because it is easy doesn't make it right.

I'm not righteous by any means. I just can't do it anymore.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:31 PM   #97
Black Mesa Offroad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Dean
It is different for sure... like I said, but not by too much. If he just rode a cool road out west then whatever.... but he worked hard to create an experience... and it is telling that so many of us here want to be a part of it and importantly don't want to figure it out ourselves. That right there makes it valuable.

Nowadays you can buy a song for .99 cents... would you go to the convenience store and walk out with a chocolate bar? Just because it is easy doesn't make it right.

I'm not righteous by any means. I just can't do it anymore.
It would be one thing if someone passed off their GPS tracks to someone else under the guise of TAT GPS files and tried to make money off it based on the fact that it is using something another guy created as marketing purposes.

But here's a kicker. How many GPS files are available for free that are of areas that are taken off of public land? The trails in Moab, Johnson Valley, what have you. You can buy the maps, but does that give the creator of those maps the standing to squash any sharing of GPS tracks created on the same trails? I can also go on at least my state's (and probably the other states as well), download maps for free and just going off the information posted here and other websites(which I have done for my area), create the necessary mapping needed to complete the TAT ride.

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that Sam can own the name and the roll charts and maps with the specific directions; but to squash a computer file created by another person that traveled publically accessible routes smells like nothing more than holier than thou elitism............
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:05 PM   #98
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On the fence, (sorta)...

I can see both sides of this argument, and there are some valid points for each...

1: "Free distribution hurts future developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders". - Sounds good, but how many YEARS have riders been complaining about the SAME issues of "bridge out", and "Oregon S*#ks". If Sam wants to keep his intellectual "property rights", he should take the TIME to update and incorporate the "fixes" that many of you here have posted up. The fact that he has not, even after all this time, "dilutes" the value of the TAT Maps, and I would have to say that it is no longer "protected" information. (just stated for arguments sake, I firmly believe these still have value, and advocate purchasing).

2: There ARE options for the "cheap"... it took me about 6 hours of reading the TAT ride report threads, and posting "known location" WayPoints to get the "meat" of the ride on MapQuest. Anyone who wants can do this. Then they can "ride the TAT", but would likely miss most of the "good stuff" on Sam's maps. (and a LOT of the stuff in Nevada, Utah, would be so hard to find that anyone doing this would likely NOT be on the TAT route anyway!) These "cheap" SOB's could then post up their GPS tracks if they wish, since this would be THEIR intellectual property...

3: I think Sam might be missing out on a good compromise... Post up to a public forum the TAT GPS Route. (just the Track of the main route). Any special "secret sections" could be excluded from this track. The VALUE of Sam's maps is really in the "other stuff", such as Fuel stops, Hotels, special sites, camping, etc. He would still get business from most riders (and I would be/am gonna be one).

4: As long as a rider is doing a "discovery" ride, or going on an "assumed" trail, with no prior (detailed) knowlege of where that trail actually is, they can post GPS tracks up to their hearts content. The minute they start using OTHER resources, such as Sam's maps/roll charts, then the GPS tracks would be "protected" as the other resources property, and should NOT be posted. period.

(I think I am rambling, and might even be contradicting myself?????)

So, when I take my TAT ride in August 2011, (60 days+ planned for the round-trip), I will be using Sam's TAT Maps/Roll Charts as "a" Resource, but not my ONLY resource. After I purchase these in April/May, I will likely be asking some of you for PM GPS of the TAT, either in sections, or across the whole trip. This would alleviate most of the "dead-end" trail issues... Also, a lot of the "stops" have other riding options, especially the Moab area, so gps info on some of these would also be helpful when the time comes...

I am also working on an "Alternative" route at the Western end, heading South-East from the Cal/Ore/Nev border, by Mount Shasta, to Eureka, (vs. North-East around Crater Lake). The middle is fairly complete, still need to work on the Coast and Eastern portions, with 3 options for a lot of this route. (Slab, Forest Service Road, and technical). Thoughts or comments on providing this would be appreciated.
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:23 PM   #99
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back to the original discussion?

I think we started this by asking for GPS tracks "in addition" to the TAT maps, due to some of us (lazy? time better served on other projects?) not wanting to take the time to hand-transcribe them into Mapquest....

The MAIN reason that *I* would like the GPS tracks (preferably the ride tracks, not the "track draw tool" tracks) is that this would guarentee the track is accurate. Read the many other posts regarding those using the "hand-drawn" tracks, via's, waypoints, Routing tools, etc. and many places the track is NOT anywhere CLOSE to the actual TAT trail.
Having an accurate "as ridden" track would assure that you don't "get lost" in any of the thousand questionable turns on this route.

(...and I am NOT going to use this as a "follow the line" ride track, as I plan on going slow and enjoying the ride, with many layovers in the "funner" locations. This is gonna be used as a confirmation line that I am still on the correct route...)

Russ
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:59 PM   #100
Black Mesa Offroad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm530russ
[COLOR=#fffacd]4: As long as a rider is doing a "discovery" ride, or going on an "assumed" trail, with no prior (detailed) knowlege of where that trail actually is, they can post GPS tracks up to their hearts content. The minute they start using OTHER resources, such as Sam's maps/roll charts, then the GPS tracks would be "protected" as the other resources property, and should NOT be posted. period.
That's kind of a slippery slope persay just for the fact that there have been GPS tracks posted on 3rd party websites of TAT runs in progess. Did that website have permission to post those tracks?
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:22 AM   #101
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So I buy the rollcharts from Sam.I'm on is TAT route.I fall down and get injury bad,now I sue Sam because he didn't warn me that the hazard was there.I know he as never thought of this.Cause I have seen no release of liabity anywhere on SAM site.Along with profits comes liabity.And I can guartee U that their is plenty of attorney out there that would just love to take Sam apart for this TAT route.Sam can't have is cake and eat it too.Like that other guy said Sam wants to SHARE the Adventure with Us.But as soon as he started having people pay for these TAT roll charts he opened himself to the liaibilty that comes with owning something FOR SALE.So Sam better go get a patent on these rollcharts and become a LLC company.Or go back to the where it was original intended,to SHARE the route with other Adventure rider. Flame suit on....
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:53 AM   #102
Disco Dean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Mesa Offroad
But here's a kicker. How many GPS files are available for free that are of areas that are taken off of public land? The trails in Moab, Johnson Valley, what have you. You can buy the maps, but does that give the creator of those maps the standing to squash any sharing of GPS tracks created on the same trails? I can also go on at least my state's (and probably the other states as well), download maps for free and just going off the information posted here and other websites(which I have done for my area), create the necessary mapping needed to complete the TAT ride.
Sure... I've even gone on google earth with the place names and found the trails in satellite images - where one can click and get the coordinates. In the end to ME... Sam did the work. I like it. I appreciate it. And, I think the "kicker" to all of us is - We wouldn't have done it without him "not that way" so I feel I should compensate him for it - that is all. Do what you want... like I said - your call.
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:05 AM   #103
Countdown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueByU06
So I buy the rollcharts from Sam.I'm on is TAT route.I fall down and get injury bad,now I sue Sam because he didn't warn me that the hazard was there.I know he as never thought of this.Cause I have seen no release of liabity anywhere on SAM site.Along with profits comes liabity.And I can guartee U that their is plenty of attorney out there that would just love to take Sam apart for this TAT route.Sam can't have is cake and eat it too.Like that other guy said Sam wants to SHARE the Adventure with Us.But as soon as he started having people pay for these TAT roll charts he opened himself to the liaibilty that comes with owning something FOR SALE.So Sam better go get a patent on these rollcharts and become a LLC company.Or go back to the where it was original intended,to SHARE the route with other Adventure rider. Flame suit on....
Not sure what the point of this is.

Sam is trying to have his cake and eat it to?
Sam should go out of business?
Author knows Sam doesn't have liability protection?
A message to sleeze-ball riders to go on TAT, get hurt, and cash in? (Nuke it)
Advice to Sam on how to protect himself?

Yes in this world, liabililty protection is a must. Rider signed acknowledgement of risk, disclaimer on product, and insurance is the standard. We have done very well with AMA liability protection.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:46 PM   #104
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Can we sue RAND McNALLEY because We used their maps on any Hy?
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:06 PM   #105
EnduroRdr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huggybear
Can we sue RAND McNALLEY because We used their maps on any Hy?

Sure why not, in America it seems you can sue anybody for anything.

See these stupid lawsuits - http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp
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