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Old 03-26-2014, 12:49 PM   #1
Tonicu OP
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Question KTM LC4 640 '03 question countershaft needle bearing

Found the reason for the metal found in the magnets



Were are all the needles gone?



The washer or should I say what's left



This bit needs replacement



Finally a video with the shaft play, slightly over 1mm

http://youtu.be/msILzLxj1m8


So ... I guess - and hope too - that this totally failed needle bearing, shown as 1 in the repair's manual page 57, can be replaced without splitting the cages.
Apart from this, all the internal parts I've accessed to seem to be ok, clutch is 2,65mm, springs 36mm and the sprague clutch looks almost brand new, spring included. No damaged gears, everything looks fine other than the countershaft needle bearing.

Has anyone experienced the same problem and how did you sort it out?
I could have a needle bearing specifically machined, but what about the other side where the c/s is? That one for sure can't be replaced from outside, but it looks there's no other damage either to the case or the shaft itself.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:32 PM   #2
vintagespeed
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chain slack, it's necessary.

so how do you suppose to remove the needle bearing cage from the case with the shaft still in place? i dont see how that's possible to do. and the other bearing is probably just as bad.

bite the bullet and pull 'er down.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:20 PM   #3
gunnerbuck
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I'll agree with Vintage, it's a pretty tough prospect to try get that bearing out without splitting the cases... Even with the cases split and heated that bearing seems to hold in place pretty good...

I suspect that by looking at the amount of slop you have on the end of the shaft, that your countershaft will need to be replaced as well...
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:07 PM   #4
Tonicu OP
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Thanks for the tips, Vintage&Gunner associates Inc. ;)

I know it'd be better to split the cases and replace quite a few parts here and there, but I wonder if I managed to get the failed bearing out, for instance using this method would the new one fit trouble free just by heating the case and freezing the new bearing, or would the shaft interfere somehow?

http://youtu.be/h3aWPC40u7g
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:30 PM   #5
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonicu View Post
Thanks for the tips, Vintage&Gunner associates Inc. ;)

I know it'd be better to split the cases and replace quite a few parts here and there, but I wonder if I managed to get the failed bearing out, for instance using this method would the new one fit trouble free just by heating the case and freezing the new bearing, or would the shaft interfere somehow?

http://youtu.be/h3aWPC40u7g
Well if you managed to get the old bearing out it would not be that difficult to drive in the new bearing... It is very likely that the shaft would still wiggle about somewhat with the new bearing as this is a race less bearing so it directly wears on the shaft and running a long time with a worn unit destroys the shaft... Also with the shaft moving about your gearbox gears also may take a beating as they may not be meshing together with the full depth of the teeth...
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:37 AM   #6
Tseta
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Well, this all looks unpleasantly familiar...

It was exactly this bearing that failed on my bike during the return leg of my trans-Siberian journey, leaving me "stranded" in Tomsk.

Cheers,

Tseta
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:16 PM   #7
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Good reminder, Tseta, and great thread about your Siberian adventure. Pics& tips have been very useful both from yours and Gunner's threads. Thanks.
As I'm planning a complete rebuild next winter - although we ride all year round, we enjoy a nice mild climate in NW Spain - my idea is to pull the bearing drilling it with a dremel rotary tool and freezing it with this : http://youtu.be/QET2T2KipR4

My two main worries are if it won't come out to the outer part of the case, as the manual says it should be replaced from the inside, and it may have an insert within the case preventing it from getting out. How did you replace yours?
Is it the HK2216 bearing?

The second one is more of an issue, as the shaft itself is likely to be shot as Tseta's, as probably the other end is too.
My idea is to add a race in bronce to the bearing, so as to reduce as much as we can the wobble of the shaft. Then change the oil more often and have it rebuilt hopefully by the end of the year.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:58 AM   #8
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Finally the remains of the needle bearing came out after some persuasion.
It turns out it's the 4902KSE needle bearing, which, to my surprise is not available at KTM. No hassle, the local shop has a couple.
The crankshaft bearing retainer doesn't need replacement and neither do the oil pumps, no scratches, no play and the 0,10 gauge doesn't get in. They look good.
Found another bearing asking for a replacement, the 0625160040 one, balancer shaft case ball bearing.
So a couple of bearings, stop disks and a custom made inner race for the idler gear. The countershaft will be replaced when the engine is rebuilt, as it's more than likely it's damaged. I have several months to look for a second hand one, brand new is crazy expensive.
Learning more every time with the 640. What a bike.

Taking about rebuilds ... may I ask those who have already done them which was your approximate budget? I know it will depend on whether the piston, crankshaft and gear are shot or not, but I'd like to know an orientative figure of how much the parts will add up.
Around 1000$ if I do most of the job?
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:13 PM   #9
Tonicu OP
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Just one more question.
In the microfiche there are two needle bearings, numbers 12 and 13, part numbers 56533093000 and 56533098000 respectively.
It's clear to me that number 12 goes in the engine case, but does n. 13 actually go inside the idler gear within the bronce race?
I've looked for a picture of an idler gear with this needle bearing but haven't found it, and it's been quite a surprise I didn't find a single needle, not from this neither from the n. 12 one.

Anyone got a picture?
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:55 PM   #10
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonicu View Post
Just one more question.
In the microfiche there are two needle bearings, numbers 12 and 13, part numbers 56533093000 and 56533098000 respectively.
It's clear to me that number 12 goes in the engine case, but does n. 13 actually go inside the idler gear within the bronce race?
I've looked for a picture of an idler gear with this needle bearing but haven't found it, and it's been quite a surprise I didn't find a single needle, not from this neither from the n. 12 one.

Anyone got a picture?
#13 sits inside the gearbox, the kickstart idler gear runs on the bronze bushing...

Pretty hard to know what the cost will be to rebuild your engine until you open it up and inspect... You could do a best case and worst case budget...

I am in the process of gathering all what I need to build another engine and so far the cost of bringing the used engine back up to spec has been about $1000 - $1200 CAD.. This is the best case where I didn't have to replace valve components or have the cylinder replated... Instead I had the cylinder honed, to go along with a new pro-x piston, put a Pro-X con rod rebuild kit in, had the valves turned and only needed new seals on top, replaced engine bearings + seals and a full engine gasket kit...

If you have to replace the countershaft, replace valve components and such your costs could easily jump to $1500-$2000 Canadian = to ? euro...
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:58 AM   #11
Tonicu OP
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Thanks for the info, Gunner.
As for the rebuild parts cost I've started looking for a spare low mileage engine, which should be a much cheaper option.
As for the failed c/s bearing, it's p/n 56533093000. Cost, about 14. If not replaced in time you'll need an expensive ~300 shaft and very likely splitting the cases, with all what is involved in taking an engine apart: time, labour and /$.
So, apart from many other tips learnt in this great thread, as the intake roller rocker bearing issues for instance or the water pump ones, I'll add this c/s one to the regular maintenance check list, bearing also in mind several of you have encountered the same bearing trouble too.

So new bearing in place, new oil to be changed after a short while and hopefully the problem shall be sorted out until next season's scheduled rebuild.

Tempted though with the '14 690, modern and with Bosch 9M+ abs. But do I really need it?
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:23 PM   #12
bmwktmbill
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If you havent replaced the clutch case please replace the crankshaft seal in the clutch case.

If it fails your lower end/big end is toast.

bill
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:30 PM   #13
Tonicu OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
If you havent replaced the clutch case please replace the crankshaft seal in the clutch case.

If it fails your lower end/big end is toast.

bill
May I ask for a picture so I don't replace the wrong one?

Thanks, Bill.

Is 0760122270 the one to replace? 12x22x7 seal


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