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Old 05-24-2012, 06:25 PM   #25441
ScottV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
I think the SR9c is an excellent pistol for a new shooter, and even good for an old geezer like me. Mine has become my in-the-car gun, loaded, one in the chamber, but slide safety in the on position. Nifty little gun.
I have been reading about the Ruger since it's been mentioned here. It looks very comparable to the Springfield XD9 SC. A little thinner, different safety, slightly longer barrel, almost the same weight. Hopefully the range has one to rent so I can try them both out.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #25442
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I'm used to carrying a single action, but I think the difference is there is no hammer on the Glock. The Glock is cocked if there is a round in the chamber, right? I have to manually set the hammer before worrying about my booger hook when carrying my SA.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #25443
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What is the street price for a blue M29, six inch? Been watching Dirty Harry movies all week and feel like getting a new gun. I used to have a 629 but the chrome finish just didn't do it for me, I also prefer wood grips.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:51 PM   #25444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
My problem with arguing a Glock is unsafe versus a gun with a manual safety is about training.
Yeah, that's the point we're making.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
If I can't train you to keep your finger off the trigger until needed, then I can't train you to disengage the safety when needed or to engage the safety as needed.
But we're not talking about experienced shooters here. Even with training a new shooter is still far more likely to make the mistake of putting their finger on the trigger too soon, leaving it there, grabbing at it when (re)hostering, etc. Training is very important, but practice is equally so. You can give them the skills, but it will only do them so much good until they practice enough to ingrain them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
A SA gun that has a manual safety left off is more dangerous than a Glock.
I agree, but to argue a glock with no real safety isn't anymore likely to be AD'd than a DA revolver is wildly inaccurate unless you're comparing a stock glock to a trick race revolver.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:57 PM   #25445
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Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
Yabbutt...revolvers have the same "no safety" feature just criticized. pull trigger...pew pew.

I think it's a matter of training and practice- start with a revolver and get comfortable with how it works, vs. doing the same with a Semi. Either path will get you able to properly handle the firearm.

In either case, it's a matter of making sure your booger hook stays off the bang switch until it's deliberately pulled.

Here in the nanny state, all "approved" guns on the AG's list require 2 out of 3 features: a safety, a loaded chamber indicator, and a mag safety. Revolvers get to skirt these regs, so maybe there is something to that route.
I agree, but again, the trigger pull on DA revolver is much heavier than that of a striker fired gun.

Also, be careful about getting a revolver first. There's nothing wrong with them, but in Texas if you take your CHL class with a revolver you can only carry a revolver, could be the same in other states.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:01 PM   #25446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68deluxe View Post
What is the street price for a blue M29, six inch? Been watching Dirty Harry movies all week and feel like getting a new gun. I used to have a 629 but the chrome finish just didn't do it for me, I also prefer wood grips.
A 629 isn't chrome, it's straight stainless steel. Not wanting to put too fine a point on it though, you're basically saying you prefer the look of a nicely blued gun. There ought to be no real shortage of 29 6" guns available, both new and used. The price range can vary widely. I think one of the new S&W Classic 29s could be had for somewhere in the $850-900 neighborhood. Used ones in excellent condition are probably out there for $650 - 700. Your results may vary! Happy shopping, it's great fun to go looking for a new gun!
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:37 PM   #25447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
To me, the only safe Glock is one with the 8 pound NYC trigger. That's a safe DA trigger, especially for a novice.

quoting "seanmac45" from a firearms forum (thanks google):

"There are actually TWO NY triggers. NYSP did create the NY-1 trigger which brought the break up to about 8 lbs. After a spate of ND's during the T&E phase the NYPD requested Glock to do something more horrendous to the break and lo, they brought forth the NY-2 which advances the break to about 12 lbs. So, in reality the NY State Police had Glock design the NY-1 trigger for their guns, yielding an approximate 8 lb. break, while the NYPD had Glock devise the more onerous NY-2 trigger for a 12 lb. yield. Both triggers replace the coil spring with a leaf spring setup. Very few civilian guns have the NY-2 trigger. It is a monstrosity."

i'm not sure how an 8 pound or 12 pound trigger would be "safer" than a 5 or 6 pound trigger. the glock ADs that i've heard of involve either a string (from a jacket) going through the trigger guard, or maybe an issue during holstering. i'm talking about ADs that people attribute to glock specifically. i think the presence of a grip safety (1911 and springfield XD) addresses the foreign object through trigger guard issue pretty well.

another thing to consider if you're talking about safety is where the bullets go when the excessive trigger pull causes the pistol shooter to miss his/her target in a combat/self defense scenario.
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:54 AM   #25448
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Here's another vote for a CZ75 variant. I certainly love my 75B.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:00 AM   #25449
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Check this out....pretty intresting

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc...5/m/9340096982

Back when I was working for a bank we had some branches in some pretty bad areas....but I honstly don't think something like this would have stopped anyone....I think it would have only got the bullets flying when they might not have in the first place....you have someone locked between two glass doors...did they not think that the wacko would think to try to blast his way out.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:21 AM   #25450
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Originally Posted by FPGT72 View Post
Check this out....pretty intresting

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc...5/m/9340096982

Back when I was working for a bank we had some branches in some pretty bad areas....but I honstly don't think something like this would have stopped anyone....I think it would have only got the bullets flying when they might not have in the first place....you have someone locked between two glass doors...did they not think that the wacko would think to try to blast his way out.
Saw that too, but I say we leave it be for this thread.

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Old 05-25-2012, 05:40 AM   #25451
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Saw that too, but I say we leave it be for this thread.

Yea...prehaps you are right...might be better for the bacement.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:05 AM   #25452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGenius View Post

I agree, but to argue a glock with no real safety isn't anymore likely to be AD'd than a DA revolver is wildly inaccurate unless you're comparing a stock glock to a trick race revolver.

I never said that. I agree that a standard DA revolver is about the safest option out there. And if you are not going to train, a revolver is the best option. If you are going to train, then any semi from a reputable manufacturer will suffice. By train I mean more than just go to the range once a year and make the gun go bang 50 times. Regardless of pistol selection, you must be able to quickly clear a malfunction or stoppage. If you are not going to become proficient in that and other aspects of the pistol's operation, then you need to stick to a revolver.


I find the all the Glock hate WRT the safeties interesting. I understand not liking the grip angle or chunkiness but several pistols are imitating the Glock design. The S&W M&P. Where is the safety? GASP!!! On the trigger. Several recommended the Springfield XD. Does it have a trigger safety? GASP!! It does in fact have a dreaded, horrible trigger safety. The Kahr was also recommended, luckily it has no trigger safety as it has no active safety at all. I guess that makes it extra safe over a Glock.


The ND's I have heard of or observed were a result of:
1)Finger on the trigger (not while holstering). The above listed would have gone bang in that case. A S/A pistol very well may have since most take the safety off as they draw. Therefore the safety would not have prevented it.
2)Finger on trigger (while holstering). A S/A with manual safety should prevent that since you should be flicking the safety back on before holstering. All the striker fired pistols without a manual safety (Glock, XD, M&P) will probably go bang equally in that case.
3)Junk snagging the trigger. This is when you get a jacket drawstring or something in the trigger as you holster. Or you are stupid enough to pocket carry without a holster and your chapstick gets in the trigger or you are grabbing at it to readjust it and it goes bang. Again, all the striker fired are as likely to go bang.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:21 AM   #25453
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Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
I never said that. I agree that a standard DA revolver is about the safest option out there. And if you are not going to train, a revolver is the best option. If you are going to train, then any semi from a reputable manufacturer will suffice. By train I mean more than just go to the range once a year and make the gun go bang 50 times. Regardless of pistol selection, you must be able to quickly clear a malfunction or stoppage. If you are not going to become proficient in that and other aspects of the pistol's operation, then you need to stick to a revolver.


I find the all the Glock hate WRT the safeties interesting. I understand not liking the grip angle or chunkiness but several pistols are imitating the Glock design. The S&W M&P. Where is the safety? GASP!!! On the trigger. Several recommended the Springfield XD. Does it have a trigger safety? GASP!! It does in fact have a dreaded, horrible trigger safety. The Kahr was also recommended, luckily it has no trigger safety as it has no active safety at all. I guess that makes it extra safe over a Glock.


The ND's I have heard of or observed were a result of:
1)Finger on the trigger (not while holstering). The above listed would have gone bang in that case. A S/A pistol very well may have since most take the safety off as they draw. Therefore the safety would not have prevented it.
2)Finger on trigger (while holstering). A S/A with manual safety should prevent that since you should be flicking the safety back on before holstering. All the striker fired pistols without a manual safety (Glock, XD, M&P) will probably go bang equally in that case.
3)Junk snagging the trigger. This is when you get a jacket drawstring or something in the trigger as you holster. Or you are stupid enough to pocket carry without a holster and your chapstick gets in the trigger or you are grabbing at it to readjust it and it goes bang. Again, all the striker fired are as likely to go bang.

Sorry, I must've misread your post. I though you had compared the glock trigger to a DA revolver.

I agree with everything you said. I don't necessarily think the glock (or XD, kahr, etc.) triggers are a bad design, they do exactly what they're designed to do. I just think theyre a bad idea for the reasons you listed in the bottom paragraph. Like I said before, i think glocks (and the like) for a beginner gun are bad idea, because it's like giving someone a sportbike for a first bike. Maybe theyre part of the more intelligent and adept group of folks that will get it right all the time right off the bat and never have a problem. Most of us however will make mistakes in the beginning, usually because we dont fully understand what we're doing or whats going on at first. We're just following rules without exactly knowing why and that leaves us open to breaking those rules by mistake. Once someone has enough training and experience the no safety deal should never be an issue.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:22 AM   #25454
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The SA XD series has a grip safety.....not ideal IMHO, but one added level when compared to a Glock. The S&W M&P series now come with a frame-mounted safety button or lever. The Ruger SR9c and similar semi-autos have a slide mounted safety.

I have to say I get the whole "keep your booger hook off the bangswitch" macho stuff, couldn't agree more, but people, being people, and sometimes even highly trained people, make mistakes. With a Glock there is no margin of error. With the other mentioned guns there is at least a chance, if the safety is used, that an AD will not occur if a mistake is made. And none of these safeties reduce speed or readiness, again, a training issue. It's easy, with a little practice, to draw, unsafe the gun during the draw, and fire just as quickly as one could with a simple draw-fire sequence like a Glock or DA revolver.

And the difference between a 5-6.5# striker pull and a 11-12# DA revolver pull is, I suspect, the difference between an AD and a close call more often than we know.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:35 AM   #25455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
The SA XD series has a grip safety.....not ideal IMHO, but one added level when compared to a Glock. The S&W M&P series now come with a frame-mounted safety button or lever. The Ruger SR9c and similar semi-autos have a slide mounted safety.

I have to say I get the whole "keep your booger hook off the bangswitch" macho stuff, couldn't agree more, but people, being people, and sometimes even highly trained people, make mistakes. With a Glock there is no margin of error. With the other mentioned guns there is at least a chance, if the safety is used, that an AD will not occur if a mistake is made. And none of these safeties reduce speed or readiness, again, a training issue. It's easy, with a little practice, to draw, unsafe the gun during the draw, and fire just as quickly as one could with a simple draw-fire sequence like a Glock or DA revolver.

And the difference between a 5-6.5# striker pull and a 11-12# DA revolver pull is, I suspect, the difference between an AD and a close call more often than we know.
For all those reasons is why I like my Browning Hi-Power. The trigger is honed to a light, fine pull, but with a round in the chamber and the hammer down all is takes is a well practiced thumb pull to make it what it is. WIth lots of practice, taking it from the holster and fanning the hammer with the gun hand thumb is just like a cowboy pulling and shooting his single action (which I am not good at yet).
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