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Old 04-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #29461
GoGo Gadget
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
I like that the barrel is octagon and I like the looks - but it doesn't look long enough to be anything but an SBR, and I don't care for rifles that shoot handgun cartridges.
It is an SBR, so gotta pay the tax stamp on that one. I hear you can handload 357mag to approach 30-30 velocities, so not too shabby.

What about a lever gun in .500 S&W? That is a pistol cartridge with some oomph.

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Old 04-19-2013, 06:48 PM   #29462
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I have a Model 94 carbine that's been rebored and rechambered to .444 Marlin. It was done by Bob Snapp of Clare, MI, and it cycles and feeds perfectly. It's had a shotgun style buttstock fitted to help with recoil. I consider it to be a great truck gun.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:12 AM   #29463
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Break down lever action? That's for sissies.



Embedding not allowed http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rNFsUvh078I

PunkinHead screwed with this post 04-20-2013 at 06:17 AM
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:32 AM   #29464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
I like that the barrel is octagon and I like the looks - but it doesn't look long enough to be anything but an SBR, and I don't care for rifles that shoot handgun cartridges.
The wood on that is out of this world.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:34 AM   #29465
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Originally Posted by RonS View Post
Why?
Why do I like octagon barrels?

Because I grew up carrying a Win 94 in .30-30 with a 26" octagon barrel. I like shorter ones though. To me all lever actions should have octagon barrels.

Why do I not like rifles that are chambered for handgun cartridge? It's like putting a Briggs & Stratton 5 HP engine in a Mack Truck. Why pay the weight penalty of the rifle so you can shoot handgun cartridges? If you are going to carry a rifle, carry one that shoots a rifle cartridge.

Interchangeability of ammo is the most often repeated advantage of a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge, and to some degree it is an advantage - but IMO it is a small advantage that I would probably never need.

This isn't the wild west of the 1800s, I can resupply ammo fairly easily. I will probably never need any of my rifles for self-defense and even if I did and they were available then so would be plenty of ammo. In those cases if I had both rifle and handgun then I would be carrying a lot less handgun ammo than rifle ammo.

For hunting there is even less of an advantage; I rarely need to shoot more than 3 or 4 times on any hunting trip, if that (usually one shot does it, then possibly a coup de grace with a handgun).

In short, I just don't see it as something that I want. I carry a rifle (when I do carry it) for a number of reasons:

1) The power of the cartridge (and/or the longer barrel).
2) The longer sight radius (less and less of an advantage as I get older).
3) For any given cartridge they are quieter.

The main reason is #1.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:34 AM   #29466
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Originally Posted by PunkinHead View Post
Break down lever action? That's for sissies.



Embedding not allowed http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rNFsUvh078I
I'm guessing that's a handful.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:47 AM   #29467
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Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
What about a lever gun in .500 S&W? That is a pistol cartridge with some oomph.

The lever action I own is in .45-70 and I will have it converted to .45-90. That has some "oomph".

.500 S&W?

pew pew pew

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Old 04-20-2013, 10:55 AM   #29468
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This is the latest addition. It took almost a year to get

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Old 04-20-2013, 11:15 AM   #29469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
Why do I like octagon barrels?

Because I grew up carrying a Win 94 in .30-30 with a 26" octagon barrel. I like shorter ones though. To me all lever actions should have octagon barrels.

Why do I not like rifles that are chambered for handgun cartridge? It's like putting a Briggs & Stratton 5 HP engine in a Mack Truck. Why pay the weight penalty of the rifle so you can shoot handgun cartridges? If you are going to carry a rifle, carry one that shoots a rifle cartridge.

Interchangeability of ammo is the most often repeated advantage of a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge, and to some degree it is an advantage - but IMO it is a small advantage that I would probably never need.

This isn't the wild west of the 1800s, I can resupply ammo fairly easily. I will probably never need any of my rifles for self-defense and even if I did and they were available then so would be plenty of ammo. In those cases if I had both rifle and handgun then I would be carrying a lot less handgun ammo than rifle ammo.

For hunting there is even less of an advantage; I rarely need to shoot more than 3 or 4 times on any hunting trip, if that (usually one shot does it, then possibly a coup de grace with a handgun).

In short, I just don't see it as something that I want. I carry a rifle (when I do carry it) for a number of reasons:

1) The power of the cartridge (and/or the longer barrel).
2) The longer sight radius (less and less of an advantage as I get older).
3) For any given cartridge they are quieter.

The main reason is #1.
I have long guns chambered in what would traditionally be characterized as rifle cartridges and long guns in what would be traditionally characterized as pistol cartridges. I like both. You get a bit higher velocity with the same cartridge out of a rifle. .45 LC can also be loaded pretty hot for most rifles. Just don't mix the rounds up with the pistol rounds which are loaded down to SAAMI specs.

Its the pistols chambered in traditional rifle cartridges that I dont see the point in. Unless you enjoy a muzzle blast that removes all your facial hair that is.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:23 AM   #29470
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This is the latest addition. It took almost a year to get

You just can't beat an H&K..
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:29 AM   #29471
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My wife is a big HK fan. This German staple gun has been my wife's primary carry pistol for over 20 years now.



I carry its poor Austrian cousin.

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Old 04-20-2013, 04:51 PM   #29472
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Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
The lever action I own is in .45-70 and I will have it converted to .45-90. That has some "oomph".

.500 S&W?

pew pew pew

Not that familiar with 45-90 ballistics so I looked it up. 300gr bullet with 2644ftlbs energy. Does that sound right?

.500 S&W from Hornady list a 300gr at 2868ftlbs energy. But regardless, I was referring to PISTOL cartridges, not rifle cartridges. And any way you want to argue it, I don't think it drops into the pew pew category.

My 1894 shooting 38spl is pew pew.



There are some definitive advantages to a pistol caliber carbine in a home defense situation, ESPECIALLY with a relatively untrained shooter. Many (most) shooters do not really train. They buy a gun, shoot it some, then put it away. With a PCC you have three points of contact between the gun and the shooter, both hands and the shoulder. That steadies the gun and makes it easier to control and handle recoil. That also makes aiming more instinctive. So under stress and being scared, you can point a long gun at a target more accurately than a handgun. Obviously that applies to full power rifle cartridges as well. BUT with a PCC you have less recoil, less flash, less noise than a rifle. That all makes for better aimed shots, quicker follow up, etc.


I am the type that likes some form of imperical evidence. So a few years ago I ran a little test after getting fed up with folks recommending pump 12ga shotguns for HD situations based on the old arguments of 1) Just pump it and they get scared and run away and 2) You don't have to aim, just point in the direction and you will hit them. Well 1) that means you entered into a gunfight with an unloaded weapon and 2) you have to do more than point in the general direction if you want to hit.

So while not exactly what we are talking about, here is the experiment I did making my argument of a PCC over a shotgun (12ga anyway).

http://youtu.be/MWx3HI4QNfw

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Old 04-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #29473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
Not that familiar with 45-90 ballistics so I looked it up. 300gr bullet with 2644ftlbs energy. Does that sound right?

.500 S&W from Hornady list a 300gr at 2868ftlbs energy. But regardless, I was referring to PISTOL cartridges, not rifle cartridges. And any way you want to argue it, I don't think it drops into the pew pew category.
Garrett sells a .45-70 load that has 3200 ftlbs of energy:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570420tech.html

And of course the .45-90 has more powder space so it can do better if you want to push it.

But paper ballistics isn't everything. The .454 Cassull can approach std. .45-70 for the bullets you can load with it, but as the projectiles get heavier the .45-70 can do a lot better, and you can load really heavy bullets in it (520 grain).

Quote:
There are some definitive advantages to a pistol caliber carbine in a home defense situation, ESPECIALLY with a relatively untrained shooter. Many (most) shooters do not really train. They buy a gun, shoot it some, then put it away. With a PCC you have three points of contact between the gun and the shooter, both hands and the shoulder. That steadies the gun and makes it easier to control and handle recoil. That also makes aiming more instinctive. So under stress and being scared, you can point a long gun at a target more accurately than a handgun. Obviously that applies to full power rifle cartridges as well. BUT with a PCC you have less recoil, less flash, less noise than a rifle. That all makes for better aimed shots, quicker follow up, etc.


I am the type that likes some form of imperical evidence. So a few years ago I ran a little test after getting fed up with folks recommending pump 12ga shotguns for HD situations based on the old arguments of 1) Just pump it and they get scared and run away and 2) You don't have to aim, just point in the direction and you will hit them. Well 1) that means you entered into a gunfight with an unloaded weapon and 2) you have to do more than point in the general direction if you want to hit.

So while not exactly what we are talking about, here is the experiment I did making my argument of a PCC over a shotgun (12ga anyway).
In general I am would prefer not to use a conventional long gun inside a building (maybe a bullpup or something that length), but not a long gun, regardless of chambering. The problem being one of maneuvering and bringing the firearm to bear. I've done some building clearing exercises in the military and I much prefer handguns for that purpose.

I agree about the shotgun - there are a number of myths about them, or near myths. Someone who is high on PCP is not going to be intimidated by anything, much less a sound - plus racking the slide on a Glock is almost as loud as racking a shotgun. I think a shotgun is useful for close quarters defense, but limited in versatility - if you suddenly have to engage someone at 100 yards what will you do? A combat situation can be very fluid with one to many opponents, and targets close up and far away.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #29474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGo Gadget View Post
Not that familiar with 45-90 ballistics so I looked it up. 300gr bullet with 2644ftlbs energy. Does that sound right?

.500 S&W from Hornady list a 300gr at 2868ftlbs energy. But regardless, I was referring to PISTOL cartridges, not rifle cartridges. And any way you want to argue it, I don't think it drops into the pew pew category.

My 1894 shooting 38spl is pew pew.



There are some definitive advantages to a pistol caliber carbine in a home defense situation, ESPECIALLY with a relatively untrained shooter. Many (most) shooters do not really train. They buy a gun, shoot it some, then put it away. With a PCC you have three points of contact between the gun and the shooter, both hands and the shoulder. That steadies the gun and makes it easier to control and handle recoil. That also makes aiming more instinctive. So under stress and being scared, you can point a long gun at a target more accurately than a handgun. Obviously that applies to full power rifle cartridges as well. BUT with a PCC you have less recoil, less flash, less noise than a rifle. That all makes for better aimed shots, quicker follow up, etc.


I am the type that likes some form of imperical evidence. So a few years ago I ran a little test after getting fed up with folks recommending pump 12ga shotguns for HD situations based on the old arguments of 1) Just pump it and they get scared and run away and 2) You don't have to aim, just point in the direction and you will hit them. Well 1) that means you entered into a gunfight with an unloaded weapon and 2) you have to do more than point in the general direction if you want to hit.

So while not exactly what we are talking about, here is the experiment I did making my argument of a PCC over a shotgun (12ga anyway).

http://youtu.be/MWx3HI4QNfw
I'd love to be able to find a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP. If money were no object, I'd have an MP5K.

Everyone knows (I hope) that across the room, a shotgun might as well be a rifle. All you get is a ragged hole through the scumbag. I have a Remington 870 for a house shotgun. First two rounds are 00 buck, the rest are slugs. The big difference is that it also has a Surefire 9 volt lighted forend. It also uses a green laser sight. Wherever you put the green dot, that's where the big hole appears.

All of my designated defense hand guns also have Lasergrips. I prefer to use a separate high intensity LED flashlight with them. If you've never shot with the lasers, you should give them a try. They have made point shooting easy. Weapons don't have to be brought to eye level any more. Just put the dot on where you want the hole and pull the trigger.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:26 PM   #29475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
In general I am would prefer not to use a conventional long gun inside a building (maybe a bullpup or something that length), but not a long gun, regardless of chambering. The problem being one of maneuvering and bringing the firearm to bear. I've done some building clearing exercises in the military and I much prefer handguns for that purpose.
But the shooter with limited training should not be clearing his/her house. They should be in the corner on the phone with 911 while their firearm of choice is pointing in the direction of whatever is going bump in the night.

I have cleared my house and surrounding property with my AR just fine. My wife only needs to get to the kids room and hunker down. Different tools for different jobs. There is no magical gun that will suit every purpose. Again, I was merely illustrating where a PCC is very practical and might well be the best firearm for a given shooter and situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
I agree about the shotgun - there are a number of myths about them, or near myths. Someone who is high on PCP is not going to be intimidated by anything, much less a sound - plus racking the slide on a Glock is almost as loud as racking a shotgun. I think a shotgun is useful for close quarters defense, but limited in versatility - if you suddenly have to engage someone at 100 yards what will you do? A combat situation can be very fluid with one to many opponents, and targets close up and far away.
We talking combat or home defense? You take a 100 yard shot in a HD situation you are probably going to prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
I'd love to be able to find a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP. If money were no object, I'd have an MP5K.

Everyone knows (I hope) that across the room, a shotgun might as well be a rifle. All you get is a ragged hole through the scumbag. I have a Remington 870 for a house shotgun. First two rounds are 00 buck, the rest are slugs. The big difference is that it also has a Surefire 9 volt lighted forend. It also uses a green laser sight. Wherever you put the green dot, that's where the big hole appears.

All of my designated defense hand guns also have Lasergrips. I prefer to use a separate high intensity LED flashlight with them. If you've never shot with the lasers, you should give them a try. They have made point shooting easy. Weapons don't have to be brought to eye level any more. Just put the dot on where you want the hole and pull the trigger.

You can get a JR Carbine that takes either G21 or 1911 mags. I have one in 40S&W but have not wrung it out enough to decide if it is more than just a toy.

Lasers actually slow me down. I spend more time looking for the dot instead of squeezing the trigger. I am on target, but looking for a little red dot to confirm it slows me down. Plus, when looking through the sights I don't see it. I have a Crimson Trace sitting in the box virtually unused. I played a bit but just did not like it.
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