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Old 05-19-2013, 03:15 PM   #8131
beechum1
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Originally Posted by elsalvadorklr View Post
dont overtighten the stem nut, that just tightens the clamp onto the steering stem retainer...

make sure you can tap the retainer locknut till you have nice movement from side to side, you should be able to tap one end of the bars and the whole front end should move fully to one side...if it doesnt its too tight, if its too soft you will notice the wobble when riding at high speed

youll get a feel for it after a few tightenings

And if when you tighten it, it feels Notchy, you need new races and bearings.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:23 PM   #8132
elsalvadorklr
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Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
And if when you tighten it, it feels Notchy, you need new races and bearings.
eggzactly!

classic no grease overtightening scenario...

you must lube in my opinion every 3 months or so

what happens is since the xr is oil frame cooled the grease melts out or dries up a lot faster (cause the heat reached the stem tube) than an aluminum water coold frame, people simply let them go un serviced and they die a quick death...

bad bad
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:17 AM   #8133
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Originally Posted by mcma111 View Post
John,

Just how far did you ride the bike? The cam and rockers look fine. No issue there. The piston and cylinder on the other hand do not look good for a fresh start up. I know you had the lower end apart as you replaced some transmission parts. It looks like there was some contamination that marked up the piston and cylinder. Have the piston and cylinder measured again. What size piston did you install? I'll call my machinist and ask how much clearance he would have set the cylinder to. Usually it's 3 to 4 thou. Did you oil the rings and piston or install it dry?
Hey Steve,

In total I rode maybe 3-4km max. Probably closer to 2...I forgot to connect the speedo so not really certain. As soon as I noticed the knocking I turned around and headed back.

It was the 99.8mm wossner, exact same piston that benno ended up with. Cleared to 1.5 not 2.5 but not sure if that's the problem especially with that knock.

I installed the piston as per the machinists recommendations: little oil on the rings but otherwise dry.

When I get time I'll get my crank and rod checked and maybe replaced. There's no vertical play in the rod but it does incline on an angle a bit, like bennos. Perhaps with a clearance this tight it just can't tolerate any problems with the big end. I'll check the crank bearings too.

Thanks Steve,

John
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:30 AM   #8134
elsalvadorklr
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I just dont get it, that machinist is DUMB plain and simple, stubborn and dumb, he did the exact same thing to benno, you think he would realize he had something to do with that other meltdown and not do the same thing to yours...

wossner specify extra loose tolerances even compared to other forged pistons like wiseco and je...


really this is beyond maddening even to me! I feel so bad for you man

like steve says there is maybe a chance you still had debri in the cases too and that scratched up the cylinder a bit too..

btw Im a fan of dry installs now it has its benefits...

just lube the piston skirts...and pin rod
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:07 AM   #8135
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Originally Posted by Captain115 View Post
Hey Steve,

.

It was the 99.8mm wossner, exact same piston that benno ended up with. Cleared to 1.5 not 2.5 but not sure if that's the problem especially with that knock.



1.5- 2.5 is this metric?
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:03 PM   #8136
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John,sorry about your troubles.

when you say clearance are you talking 1-2.5 thou ?

a general rule of thumb is 1 thou per inch of bore size (from memory)
I would expect as Steve has said 3-4 thou

that piston skirt does look like it has started to 'pick up' on the bore
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #8137
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Originally Posted by elsalvadorklr View Post
I just dont get it, that machinist is DUMB plain and simple, stubborn and dumb, he did the exact same thing to benno, you think he would realize he had something to do with that other meltdown and not do the same thing to yours...
wossner specify extra loose tolerances even compared to other forged pistons like wiseco and je...
really this is beyond maddening even to me! I feel so bad for you man
like steve says there is maybe a chance you still had debri in the cases too and that scratched up the cylinder a bit too..
btw Im a fan of dry installs now it has its benefits...

just lube the piston skirts...and pin rod
Here that..
when i got my bore done i took it to a motor reconditioners and gave him the wossner specs and told him no different... done, had no problems... nothing worse that a mechanic who knows better than the manufacturer. so the crank went to the crank specailist the head went to the motor recon specailist and the rest was up to me and me mate(mechanic).

sorry to hear of your troubles John
im i reading right that this is the same bloke Benno took his too?
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:42 AM   #8138
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Thanks for the consolation everyone, I'm pretty down about it.

Spent the past 10 weeks waiting to get it all together, everything seemed like it was on the right track: I'd finish the build, complete my thesis and then go for a big ride with my Dad for a few weeks. A celebration for leaving the monetary sinkhole that is university, finally getting the fuck out of there.

But nope, looks like there were other plans in store for me.

Yes, it is the same guy who did Benno's, and the same clearance. That is in imperical measurements, 1.5 thousandths, where as the box says 0.3mm (like 2.4 thousandths or something? But again like Benno, it seems this guy knows his shit. I know, I know he didn't do it to the manufacturers specs and there are two failed rebuilds on the similar piston in the similar engine with the same machinist. No great stats. But I truly believed him, and possible got burnt by it. Go figure. Not too pissed about that strangely.

No, I have a feeling that the knocking is a separate issue to the tight clearance. Especially as it was knocking when I tore it down the first time. Sure I checked the lateral play (in spec), the bearings seemed ok and there wasn't any vertical play but seeing as how it still has this knock after I had replaced everything except the big end and main bearings leads me to consider it could be a problem there.

Unlikely? Probably, but I don't have much else to go on. I know that if I put it back together and it still knocked because I didn't take the time to check the bottom end I would lose my shit...more than I already have. I'll get him to clearance the Wossner spec now too, well if I can still use the same piston without a re-bore.

Thanks everyone. Fucking annoying but there it is.

Cheers,

John
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:43 AM   #8139
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Originally Posted by Captain115 View Post
Thanks for the consolation everyone, I'm pretty down about it.

Spent the past 10 weeks waiting to get it all together, everything seemed like it was on the right track: I'd finish the build, complete my thesis and then go for a big ride with my Dad for a few weeks. A celebration for leaving the monetary sinkhole that is university, finally getting the fuck out of there.

But nope, looks like there were other plans in store for me.

Yes, it is the same guy who did Benno's, and the same clearance. That is in imperical measurements, 1.5 thousandths, where as the box says 0.3mm (like 2.4 thousandths or something? But again like Benno, it seems this guy knows his shit. I know, I know he didn't do it to the manufacturers specs and there are two failed rebuilds on the similar piston in the similar engine with the same machinist. No great stats. But I truly believed him, and possible got burnt by it. Go figure. Not too pissed about that strangely.

No, I have a feeling that the knocking is a separate issue to the tight clearance. Especially as it was knocking when I tore it down the first time. Sure I checked the lateral play (in spec), the bearings seemed ok and there wasn't any vertical play but seeing as how it still has this knock after I had replaced everything except the big end and main bearings leads me to consider it could be a problem there.

Unlikely? Probably, but I don't have much else to go on. I know that if I put it back together and it still knocked because I didn't take the time to check the bottom end I would lose my shit...more than I already have. I'll get him to clearance the Wossner spec now too, well if I can still use the same piston without a re-bore.

Thanks everyone. Fucking annoying but there it is.

Cheers,

John
erm... Is he the only one who can do this type of work...?

If not i'd move on to another person who can and wants to deliver work you asked for..
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:49 AM   #8140
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one good thing to look forward to is once all this shit is done and dusted you will have one hell of a bike ... i know i did
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:34 AM   #8141
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Originally Posted by Royal Club View Post
erm... Is he the only one who can do this type of work...?

If not i'd move on to another person who can and wants to deliver work you asked for..
This


The fact that he managed to convince you that he knows better than the good people that MADE YOUR FUCKING PISTON completely confounds me, considering that you knew in advance what happened the last time he did this

Sorry to be a bummer
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:47 AM   #8142
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What was the ring end gap? The top ring should have 0.015. Look at the marks at the top of the cylinder- I suspect the rings butted together when the engine got to operating temp. Tom
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:55 AM   #8143
elsalvadorklr
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alright so lets focus on the noise then(like everyone else thinks too, maybe that guy knows his shit on everything else but a wossner and xr6 piston bore clearance) which is what you needed done well

he screwed you and will no convince you that its not the tight tolerance cause he knows his shit right? thats never happened before...ever!

anywhoo

so the knock

did you check the bearings for damage by debris when tearing down the engine?

did you check the crank for trueness? runout is the exact term here

are you completely sure that the prox crank that you had in there was installed correctly before?

as in there is only slight side to side clearance and not vertical?

when is the knocking happening exactly?

I found out that my 88 crank balancer is a better design and better fitting in the cases than the 91 and up balancers, it had some lateral play in the cases meaning it could rattle when the engine is cold...as the engine warms it would lessen id assume...

other stuff can rattle too...

bearing to case fit(the crank bearings are nice and honda loose, some guys actually use bearing retainer liquids to help against bearing slop)

anywhoo

just stuff to think about

lastly does your countershaft have all its bushings and washers installed correctly? maybe thats rattling around

cheers bud

ps. I think you can reuse your new piston just clean it REAL WELL and maybe buff out the skirts...and then get somebody that will LISTEN to you and wossner about tolerances and bore to spec.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:59 AM   #8144
elsalvadorklr
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What was the ring end gap? The top ring should have 0.015. Look at the marks at the top of the cylinder- I suspect the rings butted together when the engine got to operating temp. Tom
x2 if they butt together then they will push out and start scratching up the bore right?

thats what the pics look like, as well as the piston skirts getting some contact too
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:31 AM   #8145
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Thats what it looks like to me. With the bore being 0.001 small, that would tighten the end gap 0.003 or more. Tom
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