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Old 02-08-2012, 11:54 PM   #2566
Lornce
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Originally Posted by Flying-D View Post
One of our visitors today. Interesting airplanes that make me pine for the Beech Starship, which was, in my mind, the most beautiful turboprop ever built.

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Saw one of those fly overhead yesterday in Southern Ontario.

Never seen one in my life, but the silhouette was unmistakable.

Very unique sound.

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Old 02-09-2012, 05:01 AM   #2567
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
Saw one of those fly overhead yesterday in Southern Ontario.

Never seen one in my life, but the silhouette was unmistakable.

Very unique sound.

Yeah...for some reason Avantair, a fractional ownership biz that only flies these, uses us for a pretty regular fuel stop. It's a 400 kt. airplane with about a 1500 mile range. For comparison, here'e the Beech Starship, which flopped...
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:21 AM   #2568
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Very clever design. The fueselage produces 20% of the plane's total lift, permitting smaller wings and lower drag from it's three remaining lifting surfaces. Yes, the horizintal stabilizer is a lifting surface, too. Not an aerodynamic counter-weight, like most conventional designs.

Not often you see Burt Rutan out-witted, but this airframe is 30% faster and more fuel efficient than Beach's comparable Starship. And it's a viable product, with over 200 built and flying to date.

Light jet speeds on 40% less fuel. Very cool.


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Old 02-09-2012, 09:43 AM   #2569
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Originally Posted by Flying-D View Post
One of our visitors today. Interesting airplanes that make me pine for the Beech Starship, which was, in my mind, the most beautiful turboprop ever built.

[IMG][/IMG]
I caught a glimpse of one of these over KSYR- thought I had 'mis-seen' what I thought I saw through the trees (was paying more attention to my T-28 micro RC plane).

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Old 02-09-2012, 10:48 AM   #2570
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Here's today's oddity...made it from Bismark ND to CGI this morning averaging 314 kts.!!! Zoom-zoom indeed! Filed for Marco Island at 312 kts..

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Old 02-09-2012, 11:21 AM   #2571
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Here's today's oddity...made it from Bismark ND to CGI this morning averaging 314 kts.!!! Zoom-zoom indeed! Filed for Marco Island at 312 kts..

Epics are so cool.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:54 AM   #2572
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If you've ever been in the Piaggio Avanti cabin, it's great, more of a Hawker 700-800 cabin than a Beech King Air 200, which is pretty nice itself. I did some math on the King Air and Avanti II, the extra million you pay for the Avanti is re-paid in about 15 years of flying, including the speed differential. But sometimes people just want to get there fast regardless. The Starship didn't gel.....it's King Air speed and fuel burn with less useful load. It got fat during development. Beech bought them back and disposed of them, except I think there is at least one, maybe two currently for sale.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:40 PM   #2573
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
Very clever design. The fueselage produces 20% of the plane's total lift, permitting smaller wings and lower drag from it's three remaining lifting surfaces. Yes, the horizintal stabilizer is a lifting surface, too. Not an aerodynamic counter-weight, like most conventional designs.

Not often you see Burt Rutan out-witted, but this airframe is 30% faster and more fuel efficient than Beach's comparable Starship. And it's a viable product, with over 200 built and flying to date.

Light jet speeds on 40% less fuel. Very cool.



The anhedral on the forward wing is designed to pull foreign matter out of the path of air headed to the engine inlets.

The flaps deploy on the front two wings so there is no pitching moment associated with moving the flaps.



Very cool plane indeed. I'd love to fly one.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:04 PM   #2574
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One of those comes over the house every few months. Might be going in/out of 3CK as I think I've seen it there, and he's certainly well below cruise when I see/hear him. Very loud!
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:50 PM   #2575
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Pusher props tend to be loud on over flights, it's kind of a complex thing to describe why, and I won't pretend that I can. However, the Piaggio is very quiet inside - nearly jet like, again, quieter than a King Air. It is a remarkable aircraft ; 318 KTS ((365 mph) at 41,000 feet, and 400 pounds per hour (60 gallons per hour) Or 400 KTS (460 mph) at 31,000 feet, 800 lbs an hour. The Piaggio Avanti came out in about '92, same era as the Starship. There's very little composite in the Avanti, at least compared with Starship. Beech lost tons on the Starship, but I guess they learned a lot. I believe the Hawker Beech 4000 is mostly composite. Its had its delays and it has had its teething troubles.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:00 PM   #2576
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Pusher props tend to be loud on over flights, it's kind of a complex thing to describe why, and I won't pretend that I can.
According to Wikki:
"As the propeller disks and engine exhausts are located behind the cabin, the interior noise is lower than conventional turboprop aircraft. Piaggio quotes 68 dBA. However, due to the strongly disturbed flow in which the pusher propellers operate, the exterior noise is higher than desirable. The exterior noise level and its higher pitched sound has been shown to be the result primarily of the interaction of the turbine engine exhaust flows and the 5 bladed pusher props (est. +9 dB)."
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:23 PM   #2577
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I suppose that's the reason (or part of the reason) on the Piaggio, but I've read other accounts of pusher prop noise being more complex than that, for instance, on the C337, which has little of the same interference issues, sounds very similar. But then I am not really standing by my assertion since I am, for now, not bothering to dig up some valid research. Anyway, just about everything on the Piaggio is first rate, but I am wondering how well it is liked at noise sensitive airports, ones with actual db limits, like Santa Monica. It's odd because Europe, particularly Germany, has very restrictive noise limits at airports, so I wonder how Piaggio gets around that. The other item I've read about the Piaggio is it has relatively long runway requirements due to high V speeds, although I have some unofficial charts indicating otherwise.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:55 AM   #2578
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
According to Wikki:
"As the propeller disks and engine exhausts are located behind the cabin, the interior noise is lower than conventional turboprop aircraft. Piaggio quotes 68 dBA. However, due to the strongly disturbed flow in which the pusher propellers operate, the exterior noise is higher than desirable. The exterior noise level and its higher pitched sound has been shown to be the result primarily of the interaction of the turbine engine exhaust flows and the 5 bladed pusher props (est. +9 dB)."
..and yet, IIRC, one of the complaints with regard to the Starship was unacceptable cabin noise levels...
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:24 PM   #2579
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..and yet, IIRC, one of the complaints with regard to the Starship was unacceptable cabin noise levels...
Worked for a Beech dealer for awhile and got to fly in ours a few times, it was a little noisy thats for sure.
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Old 02-10-2012, 01:29 PM   #2580
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..and yet, IIRC, one of the complaints with regard to the Starship was unacceptable cabin noise levels...
I wonder if it's related to the composite construction of the Beachcraft as opposed to the quieter, more conventionally fabricated Piaggio?

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