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Old 04-19-2013, 10:29 AM   #4576
PunkinHead
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There are some pro pilots who fly aerobatics or old taildraggers as a hobby, but a friend of mine who gives seaplane instruction said, in general, the "bus drivers" are the hardest to train because their stick & rudder skills have stagnated. She said the students who get their seaplane rating the fastest are crop dusters.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:17 AM   #4577
Lornce
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Originally Posted by skysailor View Post
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:29 PM   #4578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chazbird View Post
old crusty United 747 pilot
"United 747 pilot" would have been less redundant...

Glad to hear you tried to warn her.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:44 PM   #4579
jackd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lornce View Post

Yup, that pretty much sounds like what I'm hearing these days from the flight crews. I'll have to pass this one on to the boys at work - it might make my fellow miserable wrenching mates see that there is a situation happening that is almost as bad as their own. I used to have a video of this nature that was an exchange between a hardened mechanic and a keener pilot - I can't find it anymore. That one brings tears to my eyes as well. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:47 PM   #4580
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Found it....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0L35rXxn-k
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:43 PM   #4581
vspeed
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When people say that modern airliners are flown by button pushers or whatever, I always wish I could bring them up to the cockpit of my plane on some dark, rainy, windy night and let them show me how easy it is.
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:54 PM   #4582
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Originally Posted by jackd View Post
Yup, that pretty much sounds like what I'm hearing these days from the flight crews. I'll have to pass this one on to the boys at work - it might make my fellow miserable wrenching mates see that there is a situation happening that is almost as bad as their own. I used to have a video of this nature that was an exchange between a hardened mechanic and a keener pilot - I can't find it anymore. That one brings tears to my eyes as well. Thanks for posting it.
When I left the Navy, I considered going for an A&P ticket until I found out how little money they made. I ended up spending 35 years at Ford Engineering as a research technician. The only A&P I knew who made decent money was a friend who worked for GM corporate aviation.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:15 PM   #4583
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Originally Posted by skysailor View Post
Kind of cool But. to be really honest, these guys manage computers. Nothig more. After the performance turned in by the now famous "non-pilots" of the ill fated Air France "swim team", these guys don't impress me, at all.
I was doing some recurrent in a 733 sim is SEA several years back, and witnessed a perfect approach turned in by a 14 year old girl. It's all "follow the magenta line" kids. A big computer game. Nothing more.
Now before I get slagged by all you "But what if something goes wrong" faithful, who really believe that modern airliners require "pilots", I simply use Air France as a rebuttal......"real" pilots can actually FLY!
Put any one of these turkeys in a 185, or a J3 on a gusty day....and they'd be totally fucked!
Put the average "gamer" in a 777.....and they'd be Okay....
Lyle
I am not sure whether it is worth a reply however here goes:

As I often stated, we all start with 0 hour in the log book. I just wonder these guys were probably hired off the street...don't you think they have been through the small aircraft right of passage?
The ones who will never have a chance to sit on the flight deck, left or right seat are usually the most vocal and uneducated about what it takes to get there, I am surprised in this case! What's your license number?
BTW if you call them Turkeys at least use a capital T if you don't mind.

Yes you are right to some extent and I can prove that, I just spend seven hours re-learning to fly a tail-drager with a highly experienced tail wheel instructor (after more than 15 years on bigger a/c) to learn to handle my new Maule on 31" tires. It wasn't always pretty but I can do it again safely.

Without revealing too much, I also sat on the "dark side" of the sim and done check rides where younger pilots (presumed computer literate from a young age) completely screwed up on glass.
Don't bother answering this!
Cheers.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:47 PM   #4584
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Originally Posted by Beamer Pilot View Post
I am not sure whether it is worth a reply however here goes:

As I often stated, we all start with 0 hour in the log book. I just wonder these guys were probably hired off the street...don't you think they have been through the small aircraft right of passage?
The ones who will never have a chance to sit on the flight deck, left or right seat are usually the most vocal and uneducated about what it takes to get there, I am surprised in this case! What's your license number?
BTW if you call them Turkeys at least use a capital T if you don't mind.

Yes you are right to some extent and I can prove that, I just spend seven hours re-learning to fly a tail-drager with a highly experienced tail wheel instructor (after more than 15 years on bigger a/c) to learn to handle my new Maule on 31" tires. It wasn't always pretty but I can do it again safely.

Without revealing too much, I also sat on the "dark side" of the sim and done check rides where younger pilots (presumed computer literate from a young age) completely screwed up on glass.
Don't bother answering this!
Cheers.
I'll bother. I think that the simulator check rides should include a situation where the pilot is over water past the point of no return and will have to hand-fly and land for say, 1500 NM with the landing to be manual and at night. Somewhere along the line they might include the situation that the French pilots found themselves in when they augered in over the South Atlantic. The co-pilot fucked that one up royally when the AC was in the shitter.

The examiner should be able to kill almost everything and force the crew to fly manual VFR at any time. How many crews could divert to a military airbase and shoot a successful PAR approach and landing?
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:48 PM   #4585
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
I'll bother. I think that the simulator check rides should include a situation where the pilot is over water past the point of no return and will have to hand-fly and land for say, 1500 NM with the landing to be manual and at night. Somewhere along the line they might include the situation that the French pilots found themselves in when they augered in over the South Atlantic. The co-pilot fucked that one up royally when the AC was in the shitter.

The examiner should be able to kill almost everything and force the crew to fly manual VFR at any time. How many crews could divert to a military airbase and shoot a successful PAR approach and landing?
I seem to remember an incident years ago where the top engine was used to overcome the loss of elevator authority...I never practiced that in the sim even after the incident...
You can only present so many scenarios during a LOFT, lets just say that with your ass in the back would you rather have us trained on a one in a million hour incident or on more common issues like wind shear on take off at max gross max fuel or on arrival. just to name a few.
Risk assessment is today's norm and the almighty dollar controls the amount of training available for crews and is not proportional to the low level of experience entering the cockpit.
If you ever opened the flight deck door after shutdown in the middle of the runway covered in sweat and still shaking nervously to a roaring applause from the back you know what I mean...
Remember you are only a good pilot when peers say so and not when you think you are.
The day I hang up my license for good yes I will laugh at all the gear up landings and other screw ups by various crews. Until then I try to bring pax, crew and equipment home in one piece to the best of my ability with the cooperation of all professionals in aviation working with me and my F/O.
I also include all the maintenance guys working in the background out of the public eye. I also include all ATC personnel, that calm monotone voice is often well received when it all goes for a shit.

My point: be humble and hope that you can do better than other crews have done in the past when and if faced with the same malfunction.
Until you are in the same situation you can comment but you will never know if you can do better and save the day and avoid the accident and loss of life.
This is not criticism pointed at anyone only the way I see things.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:49 PM   #4586
Lornce
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Somewhere along the line they might include the situation that the French pilots found themselves in when they augered in over the South Atlantic. The co-pilot fucked that one up royally when the AC was in the shitter.

Augered in.

Didn't they just do a big ole' 35k foot mush into the Atlantic.

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Old 04-20-2013, 08:57 PM   #4587
ttpete
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
Augered in.

Didn't they just do a big ole' 35k foot mush into the Atlantic.

Figure of speech.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:30 PM   #4588
kfsinc
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Originally Posted by vspeed View Post
When people say that modern airliners are flown by button pushers or whatever, I always wish I could bring them up to the cockpit of my plane on some dark, rainy, windy night and let them show me how easy it is.
How's the saying go? Hours of boredom interspersed with moments of shear terror??

I fly nearly every week -- and I'm continuously amazed that the 'system' and the planes, actually work. The amount of activity, engineering, and coordination that go on to getting me and everyone else from ORD or wherever, to wherever we're going is nothing short of genius. I have enough hours in a small GA plane to know that it's vastly different than a 747, however flying is flying -- and it's to FM those of us sitting in the back.

Nice job guys and gals that make it happen
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:38 AM   #4589
skysailor
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Beamer Pilot, You bought yourself a Maule? Very nice. I'm very lucky to have a buddy who loans me his Citabria on occasion. Kind of fun to just go fool around for shits and giggles on gusty days. Always been a bit of a cross wind "specialist". Must be from my DC3 days. LOL! The only fairly "modern" machine I've had my paws on was a 733. Steam dials. Kind of like the "Racer". My licence number is lower than the guys I fly with. I'm really enjoying my semi-retirement King Air gig, flying a three day week, in jeans! Fly safe, all!
Lyle
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:08 AM   #4590
jackd
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
When I left the Navy, I considered going for an A&P ticket until I found out how little money they made. I ended up spending 35 years at Ford Engineering as a research technician. The only A&P I knew who made decent money was a friend who worked for GM corporate aviation.
I tend to agree with you on the wages comment. I remember my starting wage as being $5 an hour (and the government paid half of that) over thirty years ago. My wage now is higher than many other tradesmen, with full benefits to boot. The recent trend by newer operations coming into the business is to offer fully licensed guys between $20 & $25 bucks an hour - the applicants for these jobs are few and these operations are not getting the best people walking in the door. Looking back at it - and it has been a good run - I would not recommend this line of work to people as a career choice.
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