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Old 11-10-2013, 06:59 AM   #6391
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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
Slightly, it likely wont make much of a difference and Microsoft is building a huge network of hundreds of thousands of servers to do the calculations for different effects like lighting, fluid dynamics, etc. so it might have the better looking games/room to grow.
The PS4 is actually notably more powerful than the Xbox (while at the same time being cheaper), owing to some decidedly risky bets on Sony's part (which eventually paid off). And the whole "cloud computing" BS Microsoft's been spouting is ridiculous. In order to seamlessly integrate geometry and lighting computations with a game's engine you need a sustained bandwidth measured in gigabytes/second, whereas even a solid internet connection barely reaches several hundred megabytes/second (and not many people have one either). Analysts have debunked the "powa of da clowdz!" PR spin several months ago.

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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
X Box live costs money, but they haven't had the issues of PSN.
PSN+ (paid version of PSN) gives you a selection of free games every month (though in some cases you need a Vita to play them).

http://us.playstation.com/psn/playstation-plus/

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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
Also you'll likely see more indie games on XB1 since every console is a dev one and they are really pushing that.
I suspect the PS4 will have more indie games, because it's simpler to develop for (more straightforward architecture, no eSRAM cache to mess with; a far cry from the developer nightmare of the PS3) and because it's relatively easy to get a Vita version alongside the PS4 one (a little bit of extra monetisation). At the moment, Edmund McMillen is recoding The Binding of Isaac for PS4 and Vita, Klei Entertainment are putting Don't Starve on the PS4 and Nicalis/Terry Cavanagh have a Vita version of VVVVVV in the works.
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:28 AM   #6392
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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
The PS4 is actually notably more powerful than the Xbox (while at the same time being cheaper), owing to some decidedly risky bets on Sony's part (which eventually paid off). And the whole "cloud computing" BS Microsoft's been spouting is ridiculous. In order to seamlessly integrate geometry and lighting computations with a game's engine you need a sustained bandwidth measured in gigabytes/second, whereas even a solid internet connection barely reaches several hundred megabytes/second (and not many people have one either). Analysts have debunked the "powa of da clowdz!" PR spin several months ago.
You're going off the responses to it before details were announced. This was only talked about 3-4 weeks ago, The cloud servers are actually doing much more than rendering, they also have the capability to do a bunch of other underlying tasks can be done ahead of time so no that kind of bandwidth isn't needed:

Quote:
Higher fidelity game experiences – As I mentioned before, cloud compute can enable developers to offload computations for all sorts of environmental elements. In a typical game development scenario, the game creator needs to balance resource allocation across each area – world management, rendering, controls, networking, lighting, physics, AI, as well as networking and multiplayer. Balancing the local computing resources for all of these elements often results in developers making tradeoffs that result in more focus on core gameplay, and less on environments, NPC and other elements of world fidelity. However, when cloud compute is available to support the various computationally-intensive elements of the game, these kinds of tradeoffs become much easier for developers to make. Games can afford to provide higher fidelity worlds and deeply intelligent NPC AI all at the same time. These experiences could only be accomplished by leveraging the resources of servers.
http://news.xbox.com/2013/10/xbox-one-cloud


So early on while bandwidth is still not at the level to do true streaming they can offload other minor bits which would add to XB1's available RAM advantage. This is actually not even the most ambitious project like this, NVIDIA has their GRID which is full on streaming of games.

PS4 has a slightly faster GPU (more cores, lower clock), and faster RAM, but from the reports I've been seeing it wont be a huge difference in multi platform games. You might see some when Sony develops it in house but that also depends on how the cloud works out.

Here's a weird one though, Microsoft's 2 OS's use less RAM than Sony's giving them an extra 512 MB for games.

And we wont know for awhile Activision is saying COD:G being developed for all the platforms was a cluster fuck and BF4 is supposedly as well. It'll be next year till we likely see some games that even scratch the surface of what these can do.

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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
PSN+ (paid version of PSN) gives you a selection of free games every month (though in some cases you need a Vita to play them).

http://us.playstation.com/psn/playstation-plus/
Games with gold is giving 2 free games every month for the 360, not clear if they're carrying it over yet.

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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
I suspect the PS4 will have more indie games, because it's simpler to develop for (more straightforward architecture, no eSRAM cache to mess with; a far cry from the developer nightmare of the PS3) and because it's relatively easy to get a Vita version alongside the PS4 one (a little bit of extra monetisation). At the moment, Edmund McMillen is recoding The Binding of Isaac for PS4 and Vita, Klei Entertainment are putting Don't Starve on the PS4 and Nicalis/Terry Cavanagh have a Vita version of VVVVVV in the works.
That'll be good but those are all well established games/developers for the indie world. Where will the future games that come out of nowhere be? Like Braid, Fez or Super Meat Boy come out first will show who has the leg up on that.

One other worry of mine is heat, both 360's and PS3's were known to die and Microsoft put in tons of ventilation and fans (though it's quieter) to combat this, PS4 is smaller/looks nicer but again this is something that we'll see work out in the coming years.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #6393
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Not to interrupt... but I've been playing Fallout3 again lately. Decided I wanted to play through after reading about some of the mods available. So far, all that I've loaded up is the high-res texture pack, which looks very nice. Funny how, even on my 3rd playthrough of this game, I'm still finding new locations and quests (and therefore, new ways to die).

That's quite important, since I already know the main storyline and how it's going to end. And yet, the game is still engaging and holding my interest.

After this, maybe I'll go back and revisit New Vegas.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:41 AM   #6394
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Originally Posted by nadams View Post
Not to interrupt... but I've been playing Fallout3 again lately. Decided I wanted to play through after reading about some of the mods available. So far, all that I've loaded up is the high-res texture pack, which looks very nice. Funny how, even on my 3rd playthrough of this game, I'm still finding new locations and quests (and therefore, new ways to die).

That's quite important, since I already know the main storyline and how it's going to end. And yet, the game is still engaging and holding my interest.

After this, maybe I'll go back and revisit New Vegas.
I've been thinking the same thing. Reading a lot of books that deal with the Washington area and remembering DuPont Circle, Arlington, etc.
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:33 AM   #6395
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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
So early on while bandwidth is still not at the level to do true streaming they can offload other minor bits which would add to XB1's available RAM advantage.
It's actually the same PR-speak, just wrapped differently. Point is, there's no way this could work as MS tries to portray it. And even if it somehow got anywhere in the general neighbourhood, no sane developer should touch it. It would add an element of complete unpredictability in the game's runtime environment and cause wildly fluctuating game experience (read: bad things). People with low or varying (monthly caps, etc.) internet speeds would find games with this 'feature' anywhere between crap and unplayable. What they're trying to paint this is not like the current MMO environment, but something that could seriously cause different (read: degraded) general game functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
PS4 has a slightly faster GPU (more cores, lower clock), and faster RAM, but from the reports I've been seeing it wont be a huge difference in multi platform games.
A ~45% increase in general rendering capacity is nowhere near 'slight'. And 'Resolutiongate' (the difference in resolution between the PS4 [native 1080p] and Xbone [720p upscaled to 1080p] versions of Call of Duty: Ghosts) shows that it already impacts titles. And the gap will grow larger once Sony's first-party heavyweights start doing their thing (Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Quantic Dream etc.).

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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
Here's a weird one though, Microsoft's 2 OS's use less RAM than Sony's giving them an extra 512 MB for games.
Last I read, MS reserved 3 GB for the OSs, leaving 5 for games, while the PS4 had 5.5 GB of its RAM available, with an extra 512 MB on "flexible standby" to be used by game devs on a per case basis.

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Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
That'll be good but those are all well established games/developers for the indie world. Where will the future games that come out of nowhere be? Like Braid, Fez or Super Meat Boy come out first will show who has the leg up on that.
Having big names (for indies) show their support is likely to cause bandwagon effect; upcomers will feel comfortable/safe with putting their games as well on the platform(s).

Here's an example of a relative newcomer: Honeyslug Games's Hohokum:



Quote:
Originally Posted by NikonsAndVStroms View Post
One other worry of mine is heat, both 360's and PS3's were known to die and Microsoft put in tons of ventilation and fans (though it's quieter) to combat this, PS4 is smaller/looks nicer but again this is something that we'll see work out in the coming years.
So far both consoles seem to work decently, heatwise. There has been a single overheating incident, caused by locking a demo unit inside an airtight perspex box (the guy who did that is a regular genius...)
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:54 AM   #6396
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TechRadar has a series of articles regarding which console 'won' this generation's "console war".

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming...le-war-1196215

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming...le-war-1196990

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming...le-war-1197348

Personally, I'm inclined to go with Nintendo's Wii. It sold a truckload and made Nintendo mad money, whereas the other two have barely broken even. Yes, it basically died in 2011 and has been discontinued (except for the Wii Mini in a few countries), but its achievements are undeniable.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:34 AM   #6397
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I've had all of the Sony's so I'll likely stick with them once the price comes down a bit (PC is my main game rig).
I assume both have Blu-ray this time around?
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:18 PM   #6398
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I've had all of the Sony's so I'll likely stick with them once the price comes down a bit (PC is my main game rig).
I assume both have Blu-ray this time around?
Yup. Sony nearly died during the format war, but, by Jove, they managed to win it this time (unlike BetaMax, or the MiniDisc, or the...). It was actually a bit amusing to hear MS people cough out 'Bluray' during Xbone's unveiling.
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Old 11-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #6399
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Bleh

I prefer 16x10 instead of 16x9 and I'm at 1920x1200; pretty much maxed out for my farsightedness. But, I've been using Dell Ultrasharps for over 10 years; the kids have a Hanns G but it's on a Mac Mini.

Guess I shouldn't even have answered but it's been that kind of night.
Yeah, I'm thinking about going with a 2K monitor. I don't really care for 16:10 since this computer is mostly for gaming, video and photo editing.

QNIX QX2710 Evolution II - http://www.amazon.com/QNIX-QX2710-Ev...S/ref=pd_ybh_1
Yamakasi Catleap Q271 LED - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BIXRKOM/..._dp_o_pC_S_ttl

This is the one that has the lead though; http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...seq=1&format=2 Has a better Warranty and Customer Service.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:03 PM   #6400
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Yeah, I'm thinking about going with a 2K monitor. I don't really care for 16:10 since this computer is mostly for gaming, video and photo editing.

QNIX QX2710 Evolution II - http://www.amazon.com/QNIX-QX2710-Ev...S/ref=pd_ybh_1
Yamakasi Catleap Q271 LED - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BIXRKOM/..._dp_o_pC_S_ttl

This is the one that has the lead though; http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...seq=1&format=2 Has a better Warranty and Customer Service.
The question I have on the monoprice monitor is why the speakers? The old saying about "teats on a boar" comes to mind.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:04 PM   #6401
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I did the same thing for the first one, found a store locally who stocked them under the Auria name. On sale for right at $450, found an open box display model and got it for $400. Figured it gave me a warranty, a place to return it no hassles if need be, and I got to check it out in person first. Worth the piece of mind for the first one.
That QNIX is what I'm staring at right now. It's even cheaper on Ebay. Watch it long enough, and they'll even have a 10% off that price over a weekend. I paid under $300 for mine.


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The question I have on the monoprice monitor is why the speakers? The old saying about "teats on a boar" comes to mind.
Hey! I use those crappy little built in speakers!
When gaming, I've got on a head set. I haven't decided if it's worth it to buy a set of good speakers, and like not having yet another couple things on the desk with wires running everywhere. They suffice for watching news clips and other garbage.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:08 PM   #6402
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Originally Posted by nadams View Post
Not to interrupt... but I've been playing Fallout3 again lately. Decided I wanted to play through after reading about some of the mods available. So far, all that I've loaded up is the high-res texture pack, which looks very nice. Funny how, even on my 3rd playthrough of this game, I'm still finding new locations and quests (and therefore, new ways to die).

That's quite important, since I already know the main storyline and how it's going to end. And yet, the game is still engaging and holding my interest.

After this, maybe I'll go back and revisit New Vegas.
Fallout3 was my reintroduction to gaming a few years ago. When I got it, I got the game of the year edition, and had all the extras for the first playthrough. I did play it again completely last winter. When I played New Vegas, it was the standard edition, and I never bought the downloads. But, since I put together a gaming computer and got on steam this summer, I bought it with all downloads during the summer sale. I was saving it for winter. I think it's close enough, I'm going to start a game now.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:33 PM   #6403
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Originally Posted by Jonnylotto View Post
The question I have on the monoprice monitor is why the speakers? The old saying about "teats on a boar" comes to mind.
Some people use them with their Console. Others use them for minimal sound when they don't need to run some elaborate setup nor want to use headphones.

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Hey! I use those crappy little built in speakers!
When gaming, I've got on a head set. I haven't decided if it's worth it to buy a set of good speakers, and like not having yet another couple things on the desk with wires running everywhere. They suffice for watching news clips and other garbage.
I use a headset unless I'm playing alone. Then I use the headset as speakers since I'm too lazy to run the home theater.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:00 PM   #6404
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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
It's actually the same PR-speak, just wrapped differently. Point is, there's no way this could work as MS tries to portray it. And even if it somehow got anywhere in the general neighbourhood, no sane developer should touch it. It would add an element of complete unpredictability in the game's runtime environment and cause wildly fluctuating game experience (read: bad things). People with low or varying (monthly caps, etc.) internet speeds would find games with this 'feature' anywhere between crap and unplayable. What they're trying to paint this is not like the current MMO environment, but something that could seriously cause different (read: degraded) general game functionality.
How did you come up with that?

You would code a game so this isn't a requirement but an addition, think of Borderlands 2 on PC and how you can turn on the physx. If you have a good connection it would be like playing with physx on, without one it would be off, it'll still be very playable just not as pretty.

Again simplified example but I'm going to write out how you could in very broad terms code for it:

For the game it needs functions A, B, C, X, Y, Z

ABC will be the core game functions that will run on the console no matter what.

XYZ are the variables, let's say X = rendering, Y = AI, Z = physics effects

Now the game will check the connection if it is above a certain minimum up and down and consistent (it can send test data back and forth) then it off loads Y, and Z to the servers. This frees up the GPU to do more work on rendering.

Code wise as a concept it's simple
if bandwidth > mandatory minimum, run Y, Z externally and X2 (increased graphics)
if bandwidth < mandatory minimum run Y, Z internally and X (original graphics)

Now the 2 issues that come up are how quickly can you switch from Y Z ext/X2 back to running them internally and X. If it's seamless then it's no big deal, even a small lag might be tolerable especially early on.

And the other is for people who have random drop outs on a semi regular basis for whatever reason, for that all you'd need is a simple cloud computing off option on the game, or more likely as a global setting for the XB1.

This wouldn't be a feature everyone could use and the coding process will likely have a learning curve, but if these systems have 8 year product lives it could be a real plus allowing for upgrades in performance while keeping the same base console in your home. Internet speeds were what 3-5 Mb/s back in 05? Now it's 100+ Mb/s, 1 Gb/s will be in most major areas in the next few years, and then we only go up from there. And those server farms will be many times faster, and likely larger.

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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
A ~45% increase in general rendering capacity is nowhere near 'slight'. And 'Resolutiongate' (the difference in resolution between the PS4 [native 1080p] and Xbone [720p upscaled to 1080p] versions of Call of Duty: Ghosts) shows that it already impacts titles. And the gap will grow larger once Sony's first-party heavyweights start doing their thing (Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Quantic Dream etc.).
And neither runs right from early reports Activision/Infinity Ward fucked up big time and bit off more than they could chew so I wouldn't put that game as an example of what they can/can't do. But the truth is most games will be developed for both together and so they will have similar graphics.

And XB1's first party games wont be a slouch either, one thing I'm wondering about is what the CPU differences will be if any. They are similar but Sony is using a largely off the shelf SoC while Microsoft had a good bit of customization done to theirs.

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Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
Last I read, MS reserved 3 GB for the OSs, leaving 5 for games, while the PS4 had 5.5 GB of its RAM available, with an extra 512 MB on "flexible standby" to be used by game devs on a per case basis.
Last specs I saw were that PS4 is 512 MB behind in dedicated RAM for games but has 1GB of "flex RAM" that might be needed for the OS so you can't develop for it being there all the time. It'll be one of those things as they develop games for it they'll understand it a lot more. Same for XB1 and the cloud computing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderNewOwnership View Post
Having big names (for indies) show their support is likely to cause bandwagon effect; upcomers will feel comfortable/safe with putting their games as well on the platform(s).

Here's an example of a relative newcomer: Honeyslug Games's Hohokum:

Yes and no, a big thing is ease of development. For XB1 you buy the 500 dollar X Box and that's it you have a development box. For Sony they are being liberal in allowing small companies to buy dev units, but they're 2,500 dollars. If a game is being made on a shoe string budget that's a big financial hit when most of the investment is personal/time based.

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So far both consoles seem to work decently, heatwise. There has been a single overheating incident, caused by locking a demo unit inside an airtight perspex box (the guy who did that is a regular genius...)
We wont know for another 6-36 months, I know that's a huge range but the consoles should all work out of the gate, if they don't that's a HUGE issue. At the end of 2 years we should start to know if one is worse than the other though.
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Old 11-13-2013, 07:32 AM   #6405
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