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Old 05-01-2013, 06:47 AM   #10576
Blixa
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Hey peeps -

I have a question for you. I'm thinking about getting the TT progressive springs for my Dakar. I just wanted to know which oil I should use - the 10 or the 15 wt. I weigh around 130 with all of my gear so I'm worried that the 15 wt will result in too stiff of a ride, but I see that TT recommends use of the 15 wt. Any thoughts? Thanks!

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Old 05-01-2013, 06:51 AM   #10577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
I am beginning to wonder if there are two variants on the TT peg mounts out there as there are variations on figures quoted by those who have done measurements

Looking at the pic's posted by Gravel Seeker who has the Rally mounts suggests over 50 mm so perhaps the Rally one's are the second type

EDIT - Just added Gravel Seekers mod to the sidestand pdf (at bottom of page) http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/SideStand.html
Mine are very early ones.
Bought them in 2003 I think. I have not done anything to them other than add the sidestand just a couple of weeks ago.

Early pictures compared to later ones suggest they (TT) did change the pegs themselves and moved the added metal strip from infront of the original peg to behind it. I'd think the added width to stock peg is about 10 mm which could explain why some get 40mm and some get 50mm moved back compared to stock (if they've measured the peg and not where it mounts).

Mine are a little bit bent I think So I would take measurements off my pics alone

EDIT: Also, TT spells it "Rallye". I'd think any version of "Rallye" or "Rally" is the same peg kit
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:02 AM   #10578
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Blixa, the answer is I would not waste money on spring for the stock forks, they are crap, If you are going to persist with them at least fit intimidators

Ask yourself why a GS Dakar needs 0.6 springs and Racetech suggest 0.7 or higher when a KTM 950 comes with 0.48

And Gravel seaker we wuz neber taught to spell or use the last letter in a word like bugga
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:04 AM   #10579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blixa View Post
Hey peeps -

I have a question for you. I'm thinking about getting the TT progressive springs for my Dakar. I just wanted to know which oil I should use - the 10 or the 15 wt. I weigh around 130 with all of my gear so I'm worried that the 15 wt will result in too stiff of a ride, but I see that TT recommends use of the 15 wt. Any thoughts? Thanks!

I don't actually know, but when I was in Australia and went to change the fork oil I had forgotten the amount in each leg and emailed Touratech in Germany. They never asked any questions regarding my weight or ride style and just answered 15wt and 0,5ltr in each leg (as opposed to 0,55 ltr with stock springs)
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:14 AM   #10580
Blixa
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Thanks guys for your responses.

The TT spring replacement is a pretty common mod on the F650.com site, that's why I was looking into it. The consensus there seems to be that it's an affordable change that can have a pronounced, positive effect on handling. I really haven't thought much about replacing the stock forks as a whole but it is something I've been keeping in the back of my mind. I'll do some research into intimidators. Thanks!

And the reason I brought up body weight - I've been reading a lot of discussion where people have been saying that the 15 wt fork oil works great for a 200+ lb guy, and also for a 165 lb guy, so I figured body weight plays some role into the oil weight decision.

I'm new to this suspension stuff, if you can't tell, so learning as I go along.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:25 AM   #10581
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The old threads at F650 are for road going GS not Dakar, try these at f650, The smarter one's over there are waking up

http://f650.com/forum/showthread.php...minator-Tuning

http://f650.com/forum/showthread.php...juster-install
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:38 AM   #10582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
The old threads at F650 are for road going GS not Dakar, try these at f650, The smarter one's over there are waking up

http://f650.com/forum/showthread.php...minator-Tuning

http://f650.com/forum/showthread.php...juster-install
Thank you, Wayne! I have some reading to do this morning.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:01 AM   #10583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blixa View Post
Thank you, Wayne! I have some reading to do this morning.
If you're interested in a good read, you'll have a blast here: Yamaha Forks Thread. Depending on the how/where you ride, it might be a better investment than trying to fix the stock forks.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:20 AM   #10584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blixa View Post
Thanks guys for your responses.

The TT spring replacement is a pretty common mod on the F650.com site, that's why I was looking into it. The consensus there seems to be that it's an affordable change that can have a pronounced, positive effect on handling. I really haven't thought much about replacing the stock forks as a whole but it is something I've been keeping in the back of my mind. I'll do some research into intimidators. Thanks!

And the reason I brought up body weight - I've been reading a lot of discussion where people have been saying that the 15 wt fork oil works great for a 200+ lb guy, and also for a 165 lb guy, so I figured body weight plays some role into the oil weight decision.

I'm new to this suspension stuff, if you can't tell, so learning as I go along.
Theres nothing wrong with swapping out springs and oil. You WILL get more of benefit by also putting in the intiminators. Depending on your riding though, you may find that theyre still not good enough. Thats what I ran into. The new Hyperpro springs and heavier oil were fine for awhile, but I wanted more so now Im doing the YZ swap.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:34 AM   #10585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin 3rd View Post
If you're interested in a good read, you'll have a blast here: Yamaha Forks Thread. Depending on the how/where you ride, it might be a better investment than trying to fix the stock forks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KG6BWS View Post
Theres nothing wrong with swapping out springs and oil. You WILL get more of benefit by also putting in the intiminators. Depending on your riding though, you may find that theyre still not good enough. Thats what I ran into. The new Hyperpro springs and heavier oil were fine for awhile, but I wanted more so now Im doing the YZ swap.

Thank you both for the helpful info.
The main reason for the new springs is nothing crazy or adventurous - it's just that my bike bounces when I have to do a hard stop. I'm a bit small for my bike so my feet don't have lot of contact with the ground when I stop, which is fine normally but in a hard braking situation, the bike dives forward and boings back, which puts me a little off-balance. And sometimes the bike leans when it comes to a stop after boinging around and I've been able to keep it upright, but I don't like the feeling. I don't do a ton of hard stops, but realistically, they happen. I figured new springs would firm things up a bit and wouldn't hurt for off-road stuff. I just haven't really considered the fork swap yet b/c I think for the type of riding I do, the stock forks are adequate, but I'll look into it. Thanks again!
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:42 AM   #10586
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Heavier springs will make the front end worse on dirt, the stock GS front end stock is worse than the old R series road bikes, even the road going GS riders at f650 who have fitted intimidators have reported improved small bump handling and they are now starting to fine tune the valves for even better suspension. The intimidators cant equal the YZ or WP complete cartridge forks but they go a good part of the way.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:05 AM   #10587
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Seat Rental Anybody?

I have a 2012 Sertao and I am in the process of scheduling my custom seat work with Renazco. Should be some time in July. Wondering if any of you guys with custom seats have an original laying around somewhere. I am asking because I know some just purchase another seat to avoid the down time. If yes, would you be willing to rent it out, while mine is being worked on? I know I can buy one on the flea market, but that seems silly to me.

I am in Northern NJ (next door to NYC). PM me. Thank you
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:30 PM   #10588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blixa View Post
Thanks guys for your responses.

The TT spring replacement is a pretty common mod on the F650.com site, that's why I was looking into it. The consensus there seems to be that it's an affordable change that can have a pronounced, positive effect on handling. I really haven't thought much about replacing the stock forks as a whole but it is something I've been keeping in the back of my mind. I'll do some research into intimidators. Thanks!

And the reason I brought up body weight - I've been reading a lot of discussion where people have been saying that the 15 wt fork oil works great for a 200+ lb guy, and also for a 165 lb guy, so I figured body weight plays some role into the oil weight decision.

I'm new to this suspension stuff, if you can't tell, so learning as I go along.
My limited understanding of suspension is as follows:

weight compensation is done primarily with spring rate (spring force, progressive winding, preload etc are all ways of attempting to get a satisfactory spring rate for a particular bike/rider/gear total weight). For the damping to work as designed the fork (or shock) needs to be sitting in the correct part of the stoke when at standstill. This is sag, and the best way to do it is using the correct spring for the weight load.

Preload is a quick and dirty way to adjust sag, but is not as good as selecting the correct spring for the job. Progressive windings are designed to vary the spring rate through the stroke. There are many great article on line about the different types of sag measurements (race, static, etc.) and what they should be for your riding style, so I won't go over that now.

damping is done with fluid flow rates. There are several ways to achieve changing a flow rate...one is changing the volume and/or pressure in the air space (chamber), a second is changing the "orifice" or valve sizes that the fluid flows through, a third is changing the viscosity of the fluid. Generally damping is changed for riding styles and environments.

On "cartridge" style forks, like the YZ forks, you can tune the orifice sizes by removing internal components in the valve stack to control how fast your wheel moves up (bound or compression) or down (rebound). Some valve stacks will even let you tune different damping rates for sharp bumps (high speed damping) or rolling bumps (low speed damping). Unfortunately the GS lineup only has damper rod stye control, so we are basically stuck with either changing the viscosity, the amount of fluid in the fork, or the pressure in the chamber. Pressurizing the chamber has largely gone out of fashion as it is an easy way to create leaky fork seals, and it is hard to control due to the size of the chamber. The valves on the top of some damper style forks is largely to release pressure that builds up due to changes in atmospheric conditions and heat. As for fluid level, you are better off using the volume that the manufacture provides as a starting point, then using a distance measure from the top of the fork (usually also provided by the manufacture) to fine tune the amount. When measuring be sure you follow the instructions whether the fork should be compressed or extended when measuring (I have seen it both ways). As I understand it Intimidators are bassically a way of getting more control of damping, but are still short of a true cartridge...certainly in terms of tuneablitily,

And Yes how much damping (especially in Compression ) will change somewhat based on rider and load weight.

There is definitely overlap in the way a suspension "feels" between springs and damping, and that is why there is a market for suspension specialists. Having said that you usually start by getting your sag set by whatever combinations of ways you have available or feel delivers the best results/$. Then you move to adjust your damping.

The results/$ is very important to understand. You may or may not need the best of what's available depending on how fussy your are, where you intend to ride, how fast you intend to ride it, and how much stuff you want to bring while doing it.

I had stock forks with Progressive springs. I hated them because they "packed up" (or compressed and stayed there) when I was riding aggressively, or went down a steep rocky slope with a full load. This is very disconcerting as it changes your steering angle, the time the wheel is in contact with the ground, and your fore/aft balance. Plus I could feel them flex, and even worse flex unevenly side to side. But keep in mind I tend to ride pretty technical trails with a pretty heavy load (I am well over 200lbs to start with). Having said that I am sure the Progressive springs (or TT) are far better than stock.

Ultimately I changed the forks, but I went to a KTM 50mm extreme conventional (as opposed to inverted) instead of the YZ/WR forks that are popular. They are still a cartridge style fork, but I have a suspicion that they are less prone to leaks than inverted and stock forks...I hate replacing fork seals. I could also retain the BMW brakes, which was important to me, but the YZ/WR setup with supermoto brakes looks interesting. They have huge stantion tubes that are less prone to flex (but have also reduced the turning radius). Plus they were very cheap, found on fairly heavy bikes and have a pretty decent reputation for plushness.

Anyways I hope this helps a little.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:04 PM   #10589
Blixa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayne View Post
My limited understanding of suspension is as follows:

weight compensation is done primarily with spring rate (spring force, progressive winding, preload etc are all ways of attempting to get a satisfactory spring rate for a particular bike/rider/gear total weight). For the damping to work as designed the fork (or shock) needs to be sitting in the correct part of the stoke when at standstill. This is sag, and the best way to do it is using the correct spring for the weight load.

Preload is a quick and dirty way to adjust sag, but is not as good as selecting the correct spring for the job. Progressive windings are designed to vary the spring rate through the stroke. There are many great article on line about the different types of sag measurements (race, static, etc.) and what they should be for your riding style, so I won't go over that now.

damping is done with fluid flow rates. There are several ways to achieve changing a flow rate...one is changing the volume and/or pressure in the air space (chamber), a second is changing the "orifice" or valve sizes that the fluid flows through, a third is changing the viscosity of the fluid. Generally damping is changed for riding styles and environments.

On "cartridge" style forks, like the YZ forks, you can tune the orifice sizes by removing internal components in the valve stack to control how fast your wheel moves up (bound or compression) or down (rebound). Some valve stacks will even let you tune different damping rates for sharp bumps (high speed damping) or rolling bumps (low speed damping). Unfortunately the GS lineup only has damper rod stye control, so we are basically stuck with either changing the viscosity, the amount of fluid in the fork, or the pressure in the chamber. Pressurizing the chamber has largely gone out of fashion as it is an easy way to create leaky fork seals, and it is hard to control due to the size of the chamber. The valves on the top of some damper style forks is largely to release pressure that builds up due to changes in atmospheric conditions and heat. As for fluid level, you are better off using the volume that the manufacture provides as a starting point, then using a distance measure from the top of the fork (usually also provided by the manufacture) to fine tune the amount. When measuring be sure you follow the instructions whether the fork should be compressed or extended when measuring (I have seen it both ways). As I understand it Intimidators are bassically a way of getting more control of damping, but are still short of a true cartridge...certainly in terms of tuneablitily,

And Yes how much damping (especially in Compression ) will change somewhat based on rider and load weight.

There is definitely overlap in the way a suspension "feels" between springs and damping, and that is why there is a market for suspension specialists. Having said that you usually start by getting your sag set by whatever combinations of ways you have available or feel delivers the best results/$. Then you move to adjust your damping.

The results/$ is very important to understand. You may or may not need the best of what's available depending on how fussy your are, where you intend to ride, how fast you intend to ride it, and how much stuff you want to bring while doing it.

I had stock forks with Progressive springs. I hated them because they "packed up" (or compressed and stayed there) when I was riding aggressively, or went down a steep rocky slope with a full load. This is very disconcerting as it changes your steering angle, the time the wheel is in contact with the ground, and your fore/aft balance. Plus I could feel them flex, and even worse flex unevenly side to side. But keep in mind I tend to ride pretty technical trails with a pretty heavy load (I am well over 200lbs to start with). Having said that I am sure the Progressive springs (or TT) are far better than stock.

Ultimately I changed the forks, but I went to a KTM 50mm extreme conventional (as opposed to inverted) instead of the YZ/WR forks that are popular. They are still a cartridge style fork, but I have a suspicion that they are less prone to leaks than inverted and stock forks...I hate replacing fork seals. I could also retain the BMW brakes, which was important to me, but the YZ/WR setup with supermoto brakes looks interesting. They have huge stantion tubes that are less prone to flex (but have also reduced the turning radius). Plus they were very cheap, found on fairly heavy bikes and have a pretty decent reputation for plushness.

Anyways I hope this helps a little.
Dwayne -

Fascinating stuff. Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I've been piecing things together as I've been reading up on possible suspension mods, but what you wrote spells everything out very clearly. I really appreciate it.

I think I'm going to go with the Intiminators. I've been doing some reading up on them and they sound like a simple fix to the issue I'm having, and reviews have been very positive.

I'm new to off-road riding and plan to do a lot of it this year, but I doubt I'll be doing the type of difficult stuff where a fork conversion would be useful. But who knows? I will keep the KTM swap in mind (this is the first I've heard of it) as well as the YZ.

Thanks again!
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:08 AM   #10590
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I bought my bike in late 2002 and had the TT progressive springs (made by Wirth) installed in 2003. I thought they were very nice and a big improvement from stock.
I blew a fork seal after about 5000km and installed gaitors after that. never blown another seal.

My used and largely abused machine had the stock forks rebuilt to cartrige style by a supension specialist in 2009 and he said that even though all the innards were pretty much worn completely out, both the inner and outer tubes were in remarkably good shape. Dead straight and no damage what so ever. Even more surprising since I crashed hard pretty early on which ruined my front wheel. The bike (with me on it) somersaulted into the woods after hitting a hidden stump in a ditch.

I read somewhere that the idea behind upside down forks is that the longest tube is the thickest and therefore strongest and stiffest.
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'01 F650 Dakar - modified as best I can

2005: Australia - 8 months/ 26.000 km (anti clockwise circle)
2009: Norway - 2 weeks/ 6000 km (Lindesnes to North cape)

Gravel Seekers.com

Hey !
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