Killboy failure Dragon Fest

[RDTCU]

Originally Posted by Benesesso

Either I've got weak fingers (NOT) or my bikes have strong clutch springs. You ain't disengaging my clutches with one finger. When I had Huskys I usually shifted w/o the clutch, but not my road bikes.

My 630's got a hydraulic clutch

[Human Ills]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

She looks appropriately dressed, and is learning...

Jim

I wouldn't assume she's anything but an experienced rider as well.

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by RDTCU

My 630's got a hydraulic clutch

Hydraulics don't necessarily make it easier. One of the first things most new Ducati owners do is to change the slave cylinder to make the clutch pull lighter. All a hydraulic setup does is eliminate cable problems. The force/travel tradeoff remains the same because your hand still provides all of the power to operate the clutch.

[RDTCU]

Originally Posted by ttpete

Hydraulics don't necessarily make it easier. One of the first things most new Ducati owners do is to change the slave cylinder to make the clutch pull lighter. All a hydraulic setup does is eliminate cable problems. The force/travel tradeoff remains the same because your hand still provides all of the power to operate the clutch.

But you don't get the cable drag, which helps a bit. I could one-finger my clutch to the bar, and even though it's fairly light, I cramped up my hand out walking it up a slick grass/mud hill slipping the clutch.

(On a side note, Pilot Powers aren't too hot in mud...)

[ttpete]

Originally Posted by RDTCU

But you don't get the cable drag, which helps a bit. I could one-finger my clutch to the bar, and even though it's fairly light, I cramped up my hand out walking it up a slick grass/mud hill slipping the clutch.

(On a side note, Pilot Powers aren't too hot in mud...)

A lot of cable drag is a function of cable routing and securing methods. Forcing the cable to make tight bends and tying it down tight will make it drag badly. I like to just secure it enough so it doesn't get caught in a steering stop or touch a hot pipe. Using a teflon lined cable is also a good idea.

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Human Ills

I wouldn't assume she's anything but an experienced rider as well.

She certainly could be. The only reason I didn't assume is because she did not appear to be leaning quite correctly with the rider. They should, IMHO, be locked to eachother, with he head over his inside shoulder.

Jim

[TheWorstKind]

Originally Posted by RidingDonkeys

Probably not the right forum here, but I'll bring it up because this question has been nagging me.

I rode bicycles long before I touched a motorcycle. Ultralight road bicycles stop a lot faster than the rider on top of them. It takes very little pressure on the brakes to fully engage them. One finger will lock them if you aren't careful. At high speeds, I would often find myself reaching out with just my pinky to pull the brakes a little to slow down. Never, and I mean never, did I need more than a finger to get full stopping power, and never did my brake handles need to be pulled all the way back to the handlebars to be fully engaged.

Fast forward, and I'm learning to ride a motorcycle. I adopted the same mentality. None of the motorcycles I've owned in thirteen years or riding have ever needed more than a slight tug to engage the clutch or front brake, and none have ever had to be pulled back to the bars to be engaged. I finally took an MSF class and the instructors corrected me for this. I've now taken several more MSF classes, and all the instructors say the same, all four fingers should cover the handles. None, and I mean none, have ever been able to give me a reason why.

When I'm on my sidecar rigs, I'm constantly throwing my body off the tug to counterbalance the weight of the sidecar. Sometimes you need a little more grip on the bars to put yourself back in position, but still need to maintain some control of the clutch for an emergency scenario. The one finger approach works great.

On my hardtails and my cafe racer, keeping all four off the controls works just fine. I've never pinched a finger, had trouble engaging a brake or clutch, etc.

So, what is the importance of having all four fingers on the controls?

Four fingers on the levers allows for a more exact feel/more fine-tune touch. That is why this method is "preached" in the BRC. If I have what seems to be an experienced rider in the BRC, and he wants to use two fingers, fine by me. There are many times I only use my index and middle finger. Mostly, though, I use all four. This is in regards to the brakes. For the clutch, I don't think I have ever intentionally used less than all four.

[RDTCU]

Originally Posted by TheWorstKind

Four fingers on the levers allows for a more exact feel/more fine-tune touch. That is why this method is "preached" in the BRC. If I have what seems to be an experienced rider in the BRC, and he wants to use two fingers, fine by me. There are many times I only use my index and middle finger. Mostly, though, I use all four. This is in regards to the brakes. For the clutch, I don't think I have ever intentionally used less than all four.

It's all great, til you're trying to have a fine touch with four fingers, and you hit a rough patch and the front tries to stuff or wash, then you have either no grip on the bar (other than your thumb) or you grab a handful of clutch or front brake trying to keep the front in check...

[hooliken]

Originally Posted by Low Down

All I know is that if you need to drag a knee puck on the asphalt, you need to take the shit to the track. Sorry for sounding like some stingy old fuck, but it bothers the shit outta me that people get on their bikes and push them to the point of no return (while others are using the same roads some riders are using as a track). No bueno.

Originally Posted by 100mpg

Bingo. No one has ANY argument against this. It is impossible. There are laws on the street such as speed limits and reckless driving. There are accidents all the time, all over the world and it is only because someone is doing something they are not supposed to be doing. And one of those things is dragging a knee.

Sure, you can do it and go to bed with a smile on your face with the thought of that great ride, but it don't always work out that way.

Awwwwwww!!! Do you two need some scuffed up knee pucks? I have a few laying around I will send you each one so you can show your friends how awesome you are!

Since when did putting a knee down become verboten? Is it any different than riding a bike on the draggin, clearly not designed for cornering (cough - cruiser - cough - cough) and dragging hard parts?
And since when did having a knee down become "At the Limit"?

Do you also get thou panties in a twist when someone does a wheelie? The HORROR!

Originally Posted by Benesesso

Either I've got weak fingers (NOT) or my bikes have strong clutch springs. You ain't disengaging my clutches with one finger. When I had Huskys I usually shifted w/o the clutch, but not my road bikes.

Hydraulic clutch on the KTM is a one/two finger deal.

[Bill Harris]

New Killbiy album up (mostly Landscapery) with some motorbike pics:

[hooliken]

Originally Posted by Bill Harris

New Killbiy album up (mostly Landscapery) with some motorbike pics:

Damn squids with their scuffed up knee pucks!

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by RidingDonkeys

I finally took an MSF class and the instructors corrected me for this. I've now taken several more MSF classes, and all the instructors say the same, all four fingers should cover the handles.

they are not *correcting" you.

they are preaching the MSF dogma to you...some of them probably have some idea of why, some probably do not (other than "that's what the book says").

it's probably a good way to teach newbies how to ride a bike and not accidentally apply the throttle and front brake at the same time, etc.

but it is not the "correct" (or incorrect) way of doing things.

i can give you lots of reasons why an *experienced* rider should only use 1 or 2 fingers on the clutch and brake. i cannot give you any reasons why an *experienced* rider should use all 4 (unless, of course, riding a bike with such shitty front brakes or such a hard clutch pull that you need all 4--er actually 3 since the pinky doesn't add anything--to muster the required force)...though someone else might be able to.

at any rate, the point is...just because the MSF tells you "do it this way" does not mean that is the best way to do it. insisting that people do not cover the brake and clutch...and then use all 4 fingers when it comes time to use the brake or clutch...is just one of a few things them MSF probably gets right for newbies, but not for experienced riders.

[Human Ills]

Folks are just going to have to accept that some of us have better fingers.

[daveinva]

Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota

they are not *correcting" you.

they are preaching the MSF dogma to you...some of them probably have some idea of why, some probably do not (other than "that's what the book says").

it's probably a good way to teach newbies how to ride a bike and not accidentally apply the throttle and front brake at the same time, etc.

but it is not the "correct" (or incorrect) way of doing things.

i can give you lots of reasons why an *experienced* rider should only use 1 or 2 fingers on the clutch and brake. i cannot give you any reasons why an *experienced* rider should use all 4 (unless, of course, riding a bike with such shitty front brakes or such a hard clutch pull that you need all 4--er actually 3 since the pinky doesn't add anything--to muster the required force)...though someone else might be able to.

at any rate, the point is...just because the MSF tells you "do it this way" does not mean that is the best way to do it. insisting that people do not cover the brake and clutch...and then use all 4 fingers when it comes time to use the brake or clutch...is just one of a few things them MSF probably gets right for newbies, but not for experienced riders.

MSF is for beginners, or riders who have a their share of street time but not enough sense, i.e. the "basic training" will do them good.

Honestly, my only complaint about MSF is if the coaches insist that not only is their way the only way, but it's the only way forever and for all time.

In my experience, I've never met a coach who does that, however. That's a strawman.

They all say, "This is what's best for beginners. Once you've got practice and more experience under your belt, there are other ways to do things, we encourage you to get advanced rider training to improve your skills."

[hooliken]

Originally Posted by RidingDonkeys

I've now taken several more MSF classes, and all the instructors say the same, all four fingers should cover the handles. None, and I mean none, have ever been able to give me a reason why.

So, what is the importance of having all four fingers on the controls?

Not this shit again........


Got my ass pounded by a couple of inmates for my "lever" technique!