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Old 10-04-2012, 09:25 AM   #16831
Bill Harris
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Quote:
Please define "speed TRAP"..........
It be sumpin like this:

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Old 10-04-2012, 11:09 AM   #16832
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
According to the BRC manual (http://www.msf-usa.org/curriculummat...71_noprint.pdf) page 22. It says that the downshift is a 3 step process involving pulling the clutch in, changing the gear, and easing the clutch out while rolling on the throttle.

How are they suppose to accomplish that while maintaining accurate brake control with all four fingers on the lever?
Nowhere within those instructions does it mention braking except for engine braking. So there wouldn't be any fingers on the lever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post


The problem is your "making training easier" crutch is setting the base for what the rider will build the rest off of.



I completely disagree. You give up bar control even on the street, but for the sake of discussion what if that emergency stop and swerve they're doing takes them into the gravel or grass shoulder? A large pothole? The handlebar clips the car they're dodging?




Yes.



You absolutely can use body English, balance and control to ride a locked front tire. Go watch the first dirtwise and watch that drill, the same thing applys on the pavement only easier. If you've got your front tucked under while going fast on a sport bike or SM bike and you suddenly release it not in a line have fun with the headshake / tank slapper.



When the body get's a surge of aderline it triggers the "fight or flight" response. One one of the things that happens is your fist clinch, I've been told it's because of vasoconstriction, but I'm not 100% on the reason. I am completely sure it happens, a clinched fist will apply more power to the front brake than 1 to 2 fingers, and it'll will be harder to modulate the pressure that is being applied.

I believe I understand the real reasons you teach it. You don't want someone to whiskey throttle and grab the front brake You don't want someone going around one of your turn drills and to get scared and grab the brake. So by having it uncovered and requiring them to use all 4 fingers you avoid those problems because it'll require them to think about using the brake instead of just stabbing at it. My problem is, you don't admit it for what it is. It's not the best way to brake and it's not building a good foundation for further skill development, and it's not helping build good bike control.

It's to make your job easier and keep the students off the front brake. Own it for what is instead of trying to defend it as a better way to ride, and be honest with your students about it.
It's not because it's easier, it's safer. You're correct, we don't want students grabbing the front brake, so that they have to THINK before using the brake instead of stabbing at it without thinking. You keep bringing up advanced techniques, which students are free to learn after they've gained some experience. New students are already learning quite a lot, we start with the basics and proper techniques as building blocks for the students to use to learn more advanced skills (like maximum braking). The more

However, your suggestion that using all four fingers to brake is NOT proper technique is where we seem to diverge. I, and many experts most certainly believe and teach it is the correct basic technique for braking on the street. You keep bringing up offroad or rare occurrance examples (Tank slappers?) to argue that some fingers need to stay on the bars, but don't seem to acknowledge the possible downsides or problems that would cause for new riders on the street.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe....With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up...
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:15 AM   #16833
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Nowhere within those instructions does it mention braking except for engine braking. So there wouldn't be any fingers on the lever.
So you teach them to blip the throttle (I'm assuming for the purpose of rev matching) when downshifting off the brakes but not when you're braking?

Doesn't the curriculum say you should use the brakes even when engine braking for the purpose of illuminating the brake light?


Quote:
However, your suggestion that using all four fingers to brake is NOT proper technique is where we seem to diverge. I, and many experts most certainly believe and teach it is the correct basic technique for braking on the street. You keep bringing up offroad or rare occurrance examples (Tank slappers?) to argue that some fingers need to stay on the bars, but don't seem to acknowledge the possible downsides or problems that would cause for new riders on the street.

...Orygunner...
Experts at? Out off all of the racers I can think of I know _1_ that uses all four fingers (Rossi). If you think we shouldn't be looking to the best riders in the world for bike control information. There's a fundamental disconnect between our thought processes that we will never overcome.

Head shake / tank slappers after a locked front wheel aren't all that uncommon.

The only downside to using less fingers is if your bike's brakes suck. If your bikes brakes suck you should fix that, barring that you'll need to give up control so you can squeeze your shitty brakes all the way down to the bar.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:21 AM   #16834
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Originally Posted by shelion View Post
That looks like it may end in tears. Any follow up pics?
-Thats what I was thinking but I didn't say it cus I'm always wrong!
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:26 AM   #16835
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Hey, here's an idea, take it to the no one gives a shit thread? sheesh.

and WTF is this....is that a bear? or a man in a bear costume? ops, just noticed the blood. its a bear.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:39 AM   #16836
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Originally Posted by 100mpg View Post
and WTF is this....is that a bear? or a man in a bear costume? ops, just noticed the blood. its a bear.
[IMG]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/10315_10151269121743140_459867513_n.jpg[/ IMG]
Yup, a b'ar. B'ar season just finished up on Monday.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:49 AM   #16837
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Nice knee sliders



Don't want to cross that line!



.



.

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Old 10-04-2012, 12:00 PM   #16838
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.



The new fashion in riding pants.



No fail here:



.

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Old 10-04-2012, 12:39 PM   #16839
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Wazzat an Ariel Red Hunter somewhere above?

No possible fail. Neat bike.

Never mind, looked a little closer, its a Jawa
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:29 PM   #16840
Orygunner
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Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
So you teach them to blip the throttle (I'm assuming for the purpose of rev matching) when downshifting off the brakes but not when you're braking?

Doesn't the curriculum say you should use the brakes even when engine braking for the purpose of illuminating the brake light?




Experts at? Out off all of the racers I can think of I know _1_ that uses all four fingers (Rossi). If you think we shouldn't be looking to the best riders in the world for bike control information. There's a fundamental disconnect between our thought processes that we will never overcome.

Head shake / tank slappers after a locked front wheel aren't all that uncommon.

The only downside to using less fingers is if your bike's brakes suck. If your bikes brakes suck you should fix that, barring that you'll need to give up control so you can squeeze your shitty brakes all the way down to the bar.
Why are you bringing racing into this? I'm not talking about expert racers, I'm referring to experts in motorcycle riding education. Suggesting that because expert racers do something that it should also be taught as a basic skill to beginning riders isn't very logical.

All fingers on the brake is basic, correct braking. Using less than that is advanced braking and even then only useful if a) your strength and your brakes are such that you can stop just as well with less fingers (not all riders have the same hand strength, and not all bikes have that good of brakes) b) your brake lever is adjusted to where you're not pinching your fingers, and c) you're doing so for some reason that you NEED control of your throttle WHILE you're using your brakes (generally, you should be rolling OFF their throttle when braking, unless you're blipping the throttle while downshifting, an advanced technique).

You keep claiming that somehow taking fingers off the throttle somehow reduces control of the bike. If you feel like you lose control over your motorcycle on the street if you reach for the brake with all four fingers, I would believe you're doing something else wrong, or are perhaps riding at a far more aggressive level than any beginning rider ever should. I have yet to see any beginning student whose control is compromised on the range by covering the clutch with all four fingers, or using all four fingers on the brake.

...Orygunner...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe....With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up...
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:50 PM   #16841
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post

No fail here:


Leathers too loose.

Damn, she's cute.

pretbek screwed with this post 10-04-2012 at 01:51 PM Reason: speling errer.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:00 PM   #16842
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Leathers too loose.

Damn, she's cute.
Pink and red together? Really?!
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:07 PM   #16843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orygunner View Post
Why are you bringing racing into this? I'm not talking about expert racers, I'm referring to experts in motorcycle riding education. Suggesting that because expert racers do something that it should also be taught as a basic skill to beginning riders isn't very logical.
Does a bike stop differently because it's being ridden by racer? We aren't talking about trail braking, or threshold braking or an advanced skill set. If using 2 fingers on the brakes is considered advanced; I guess I've been doing advanced brake application since I started riding pedal bikes without coaster brakes when I was 5 or 8 or something like that...

You don't put allot of faith in your students, and the end product shows.

Quote:
You keep claiming that somehow taking fingers off the throttle somehow reduces control of the bike. If you feel like you lose control over your motorcycle on the street if you reach for the brake with all four fingers, I would believe you're doing something else wrong, or are perhaps riding at a far more aggressive level than any beginning rider ever should.
You don't always get to pick how quickly you need to stop

Quote:
I have yet to see any beginning student whose control is compromised on the range by covering the clutch with all four fingers, or using all four fingers on the brake.
Maybe because your "range" is a fucking parking lot! On top of the fact you're riding cruisers with shit controls.

So if your basing your skill standards on what works in a parking lot safely on bikes with shitty brakes I really don't know what to say.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:08 PM   #16844
genka
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Originally Posted by PSYCHO II View Post
Perhaps substitute the practice of a higher risk skill with the development of more observation and anticipation. Looking further ahead and giving yourself more time to respond appropriately.

After all how many events are truly out of our own control?
And the real life (FF to 3:35)
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:17 PM   #16845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crofrog View Post
Does a bike stop differently because it's being ridden by racer? We aren't talking about trail braking, or threshold braking or an advanced skill set, if using 2 fingers on the brakes is considered advanced, I guess I've been doing advanced brake application sense I started riding pedal bikes without coaster brakes when I was 5 or 8 or something like that...

You don't put allot of faith in your students, and the end product shows.



You don't always get to pick how quickly you need to stop



Maybe because your "range" is a fucking parking lot!

So if your basing your skill standards on what works in a parking lot safely I really don't know what to say.
No, I also use all four fingers on the street most of the time, and I don't feel any loss of control there, either.

You really haven't made any solid argument why using less than 4 fingers on the brake a) should be taught to beginning students, b) reduces control on the street, or c) is somehow superior. Meanwhile, I've pointed out more than a few reasons why it makes sense to teach "all four fingers" to beginners.

If you're going to insist that beginning riders should be taught to only use 1 or 2 fingers on the brake, perhaps you'd better find some better evidence for it than "racers do it" and the false idea that it somehow decreases control of the bike.

Hey, here's a puzzler for you: If only using 2 fingers is "proper" braking, why don't all bikes come from the factory with just a 2-finger front brake lever? Why do they appear to be designed to accommodate all four fingers?

...Orygunner...
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Actually I'm not sure the Vulcan qualifies as a bike... two wheeled tank, maybe....With the 2000's clearance I'm not sure the Vulcan could make it around the tightest curves on a track without having to stop and back up...
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