Killboy failure Dragon Fest

[daveinva]

Originally Posted by hooliken

Victory! Victory!

[Gummee!]

Avast! Its a whale!

...or is that a barge?

Either way, they're leaning their heads across the DY

M

[Herkmech]

I miss Tucson!

Originally Posted by azcycle

It is! Though I probably ride so slowly I'd get made fun of on this thread. ;) Here is a shot I snapped looking down Mt. Lemmon Highway just above the halfway mark (Windy Point):




Me too... even for a pedal-bike ride.

[hooliken]

Originally Posted by Gummee!

Avast! Its a whale!

...or is that a barge?

Either way, they're leaning their heads across the DY

M

How dare you sir?

How dare you even suggest that a BMW rider is not the most awesome rider on the planet?

You know they pull your ADV awesome card for less....

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by Orygunner

If a new rider is braking, why do they need to use the throttle? As an experienced rider, I sometimes brake with two fingers and blip the throttle when downshifting to match engine RPM to road speed, but that's the only time that the throttle isn't rolled completely off when using the front brake.

According to the BRC manual (http://www.msf-usa.org/curriculummat...71_noprint.pdf) page 22. It says that the downshift is a 3 step process involving pulling the clutch in, changing the gear, and easing the clutch out while rolling on the throttle.

How are they suppose to accomplish that while maintaining accurate brake control with all four fingers on the lever?

Remember, this conversation started because someone that took the MSF basic rider course was told to use all fingers on their brake and they wanted to know why. It's simply because not covering the brake on the range, and using all four fingers when braking is the best practice for new riders, both for proper consistent technique and safety, for all.

The problem is your "making training easier" crutch is setting the base for what the rider will build the rest off of.

I haven't seen any riders, even new ones, sacrifice bar & throttle control from using all four fingers on their brake (or covering the clutch at all times), on the range or the street. What little off road riding I've seen I can CERTAINLY see the reason on rough terrain, but we're talking smooth pavement here where the bike's not bucking & bouncing.

I completely disagree. You give up bar control even on the street, but for the sake of discussion what if that emergency stop and swerve they're doing takes them into the gravel or grass shoulder? A large pothole? The handlebar clips the car they're dodging?

Originally Posted by Orygunner

Are you talking about locking and skidding the front wheel? That's the only reason the bars are going to turn anywhere but in the direction of travel.

Yes.

The proper technique when that happens is to quickly RELEASE the front brake and smoothly reapply. You can't "push the bars back straight" to maintain balance while the front wheel is skidding, simply releasing the brake will straighten the bars no matter what else you try and do.

You absolutely can use body English, balance and control to ride a locked front tire. Go watch the first dirtwise and watch that drill, the same thing applys on the pavement only easier. If you've got your front tucked under while going fast on a sport bike or SM bike and you suddenly release it not in a line have fun with the headshake / tank slapper.

I've seen some pretty gnarly front wheel skids on the range, and releasing immediately is the only solution. Every single person that released the front brake (before the bike was down, of course) regained control of the bike, even when they had been using all four fingers on the brake.

When the body get's a surge of aderline it triggers the "fight or flight" response. One one of the things that happens is your fist clinch, I've been told it's because of vasoconstriction, but I'm not 100% on the reason. I am completely sure it happens, a clinched fist will apply more power to the front brake than 1 to 2 fingers, and it'll will be harder to modulate the pressure that is being applied.

I believe I understand the real reasons you teach it. You don't want someone to whiskey throttle and grab the front brake You don't want someone going around one of your turn drills and to get scared and grab the brake. So by having it uncovered and requiring them to use all 4 fingers you avoid those problems because it'll require them to think about using the brake instead of just stabbing at it. My problem is, you don't admit it for what it is. It's not the best way to brake and it's not building a good foundation for further skill development, and it's not helping build good bike control.

It's to make your job easier and keep the students off the front brake. Own it for what is instead of trying to defend it as a better way to ride, and be honest with your students about it.

[Al Goodwin]

Please define "speed TRAP"..........

Originally Posted by Wench On Wheels

I don't know if it's related to his death or if it's usually like this..... but..... there were no less than 8 speed traps..... 5 in a 1/2 mile span..... by evening this past weekend.

Don't get caught doing 57 in a 30 on the dragon..... unless you've got great boobs and the cop who turned around to pull ya over has a thing for redheads.

[shelion]

Originally Posted by hooliken

That looks like it may end in tears. Any follow up pics?

[RxZ]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Try finding a pad with a higher initial torque, increasing your rotor diameter or look at changing to a master cylinder with a different bore size.

None of that is worth it on this bike. I only spent a couple of K$ on the bike, I do not need to spend nearly half that upgrading the braking system when what I have will lock up both ends on anything but perfectly smooth roads. I installed ss brake lines, EBC sintered pads, DOT 4 fluid (no idea what brand). I have to squeeze hard, but the lever does not come all the way to the grips. Nature of the beast.

[Bill Harris]

Please define "speed TRAP"..........

It be sumpin like this:

[Orygunner]

Originally Posted by crofrog

According to the BRC manual (http://www.msf-usa.org/curriculummat...71_noprint.pdf) page 22. It says that the downshift is a 3 step process involving pulling the clutch in, changing the gear, and easing the clutch out while rolling on the throttle.

How are they suppose to accomplish that while maintaining accurate brake control with all four fingers on the lever?

Nowhere within those instructions does it mention braking except for engine braking. So there wouldn't be any fingers on the lever.

Originally Posted by crofrog

The problem is your "making training easier" crutch is setting the base for what the rider will build the rest off of.



I completely disagree. You give up bar control even on the street, but for the sake of discussion what if that emergency stop and swerve they're doing takes them into the gravel or grass shoulder? A large pothole? The handlebar clips the car they're dodging?




Yes.



You absolutely can use body English, balance and control to ride a locked front tire. Go watch the first dirtwise and watch that drill, the same thing applys on the pavement only easier. If you've got your front tucked under while going fast on a sport bike or SM bike and you suddenly release it not in a line have fun with the headshake / tank slapper.



When the body get's a surge of aderline it triggers the "fight or flight" response. One one of the things that happens is your fist clinch, I've been told it's because of vasoconstriction, but I'm not 100% on the reason. I am completely sure it happens, a clinched fist will apply more power to the front brake than 1 to 2 fingers, and it'll will be harder to modulate the pressure that is being applied.

I believe I understand the real reasons you teach it. You don't want someone to whiskey throttle and grab the front brake You don't want someone going around one of your turn drills and to get scared and grab the brake. So by having it uncovered and requiring them to use all 4 fingers you avoid those problems because it'll require them to think about using the brake instead of just stabbing at it. My problem is, you don't admit it for what it is. It's not the best way to brake and it's not building a good foundation for further skill development, and it's not helping build good bike control.

It's to make your job easier and keep the students off the front brake. Own it for what is instead of trying to defend it as a better way to ride, and be honest with your students about it.

It's not because it's easier, it's safer. You're correct, we don't want students grabbing the front brake, so that they have to THINK before using the brake instead of stabbing at it without thinking. You keep bringing up advanced techniques, which students are free to learn after they've gained some experience. New students are already learning quite a lot, we start with the basics and proper techniques as building blocks for the students to use to learn more advanced skills (like maximum braking). The more

However, your suggestion that using all four fingers to brake is NOT proper technique is where we seem to diverge. I, and many experts most certainly believe and teach it is the correct basic technique for braking on the street. You keep bringing up offroad or rare occurrance examples (Tank slappers?) to argue that some fingers need to stay on the bars, but don't seem to acknowledge the possible downsides or problems that would cause for new riders on the street.

...Orygunner...

[crofrog]

Nowhere within those instructions does it mention braking except for engine braking. So there wouldn't be any fingers on the lever.

So you teach them to blip the throttle (I'm assuming for the purpose of rev matching) when downshifting off the brakes but not when you're braking?

Doesn't the curriculum say you should use the brakes even when engine braking for the purpose of illuminating the brake light?

However, your suggestion that using all four fingers to brake is NOT proper technique is where we seem to diverge. I, and many experts most certainly believe and teach it is the correct basic technique for braking on the street. You keep bringing up offroad or rare occurrance examples (Tank slappers?) to argue that some fingers need to stay on the bars, but don't seem to acknowledge the possible downsides or problems that would cause for new riders on the street.

...Orygunner...

Experts at? Out off all of the racers I can think of I know _1_ that uses all four fingers (Rossi). If you think we shouldn't be looking to the best riders in the world for bike control information. There's a fundamental disconnect between our thought processes that we will never overcome.

Head shake / tank slappers after a locked front wheel aren't all that uncommon.

The only downside to using less fingers is if your bike's brakes suck. If your bikes brakes suck you should fix that, barring that you'll need to give up control so you can squeeze your shitty brakes all the way down to the bar.

[100mpg]

Originally Posted by shelion

That looks like it may end in tears. Any follow up pics?

-Thats what I was thinking but I didn't say it cus I'm always wrong!

[100mpg]

Hey, here's an idea, take it to the no one gives a shit thread? sheesh.

and WTF is this....is that a bear? or a man in a bear costume? ops, just noticed the blood. its a bear.

[thetable]

Originally Posted by 100mpg

and WTF is this....is that a bear? or a man in a bear costume? ops, just noticed the blood. its a bear.
[IMG]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/10315_10151269121743140_459867513_n.jpg[/ IMG]

Yup, a b'ar. B'ar season just finished up on Monday.

[klaviator]

Nice knee sliders



Don't want to cross that line!



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