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Old 02-15-2010, 12:44 PM   #286
Pulasky
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The main problem I tink will be a front sprocket height... is too high... in oryginal engin sprocket was lower..
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:55 PM   #287
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Looks like this is an issue as we had feared.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonymorr
Hi Lukas;

I came upon this thread while researching alternatives for my Mutant Ninja. I looked over my buddies 640E and one thing that struck me was that the Ninja/Versys motor would have to be shifted quite a bit to the right in the frame to make the drive sprocket line up with the rear sprocket. Have you looked into this yet aspect yet? (sorry if you have, I haven't read the whole thread yet.

Tony
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrocks
You're essentially going to build a whole new frame by the time you're done. get out the tube bender and tig welder. then there's all the common attachment points that will have to be transferred.
Ninja or versys frame, tinker with the rake, trail, and wheelbase, beef up the subframe, trick full KTM suspension, spokes, high exhaust, custom pegs and peg mounts, big tank, custom lights/rally fairing... Weigh every piece and bring it in at 375#. Tune it for 80hp and run away from about anything similar.

I think JD is right. The Ninja-Versys frame/engine/airbox are already pretty minimal and compact. Maybe start with that and transform it with the KTM bits?

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Old 02-16-2010, 01:02 AM   #288
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YEP.

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Old 02-16-2010, 05:40 AM   #289
DRjoe
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quite a few problems you got there Lukas.
I don't think your going to get away with using the ktm frame. The front sprocket height in relation to the swing arm has to be the nail in the coffin.

You could make a jig using the 640 frame as a template and then make your own trellis frame based on the 640 geometry but if your not confident with the welder then it's going to be expensive.

It must have been heart breaking to realize that it wasn't going to fit.

I hope you find a solution.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:13 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRjoe
quite a few problems you got there Lukas.

It must have been heart breaking to realize that it wasn't going to fit.

I hope you find a solution.
Pretty much what the others have said esp. re the 2 big serious probs. With all those problems, it seems like you'd need to get into the framebuilding business and then you've still got to find the perfect tank. That said, you'd be rapidly heading down the path of an updated version of the now rather dated EX-500 engined weber twin. Good on you for getting so far
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:15 AM   #291
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Begin with end in mind

I've enjoyed following this thread but I can't help but think that whatever you end up with is going to be held up to a modern KTM 690 on the dualsport end or something like the Versys on the street end. That's if you do everything right.

What is it that you envision?
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:23 AM   #292
kyns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM






What do you guys think?
Deffinately looks kinda harder than i expected.

Modifying the frame is not an issue, if you can weld. ?

I think your biggest problem is, as Pulasky mentioned. That the counter sprocket is too high on the frame. If i was you, i would put the swing arm on and try fitting the engine in more upright position, in the frame and see how everything lines up then... With the engine more upright, there might be more room for the throttle bodys too... And counter sprocket would be lower.

Lot of problems for sure, tanks not fitting, frame not coperating...

It would be sad to see this project ending now. But a lot of work to finish...


The small vent on the valve cover, i think is for the PAIR system, that feeds fresh air to the pipe. My ER 6 had an electric valve on top of the air box, that led from the air box to the valve cover. I'll see if i can find a link to a Ninja site that had info about it.

What ever you deside to do, good luck!

kyns screwed with this post 02-16-2010 at 12:08 PM
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:34 AM   #293
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Here's a link to a forum, that has info on the PAIR valve...

http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r...ja-650r-3.html



How are the registration regulations in Austria? Can you get a "modified" frame registered there. Over here it would not be a walk in a park...

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Old 02-17-2010, 04:12 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlandr
Saw two graphs of 690 vs ER6N dyno comparison charts. The ER6N had a much wider flatter torque curve whereas the 690 ws more peaky and narrower meaning less flexible - not so much low - mid range grunt.
Seeing as Lukas has delivered the proverbial goods, I thought I'd chip in - albeit 6 months late. Here are some dynamometer graphs comparing ER-6N - will add ones for the LC4 later. Cannot find the ones referred to in my original post.





Hey Lukas, Maybe you can weigh the LC4 and ER6 engines for comparison?
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:20 AM   #295
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Come on guys, you are supposed to propose solutions and give me a kick in the butt for motivation! Now you are pointing out more issues... F me, I hadn't even looked at the countersprocket height!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrocks
you're essentially going to build a whole new frame by the time you're done. get out the tube bender and tig welder. then there's all the common attachment points that will have to be transferred.

ninja or versys frame, tinker with the rake, trail, and wheelbase, beef up the subframe, trick full KTM suspension, spokes, high exhaust, custom pegs and peg mounts, big tank, custom lights/rally fairing...

weigh every piece and bring it in at 375#.

tune it for 80hp and run away from about anything similar.
You are right, much more drastic mods needed than I had hoped. The Kawi frame is a possibility, but ultimately I don't think it's what I really had in mind. I definitely want my full travel suspension (preferably with linkage) and enduro handling, which will be very hard if not impossible to get without seriously altering the frame geometry as well. I also don't see how I could get rid of the steel tank, since the frame hugs the engine and makes it even wider. Probably 50lbs heavier than keeping it LC4 based as well. It would be a good choice for running gravel roads, but probably not work nearly as well as a 950 SE or ADV when the going gets rough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulasky
The main problem I tink will be a front sprocket height... is too high... in oryginal engin sprocket was lower..
Good eye, thanks for pointing that out. We'll have to see if there is anything I can do about that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tonymorr
Looks like this is an issue as we had feared.......

I think JD is right. The Ninja-Versys frame/engine/airbox are already pretty minimal and compact. Maybe start with that and transform it with the KTM bits?
I remembered that you had pointed out that problem before, but just from measuring I didn't know for sure. Even now that the engine is in the frame I am not certain if it's an issue, probably a question of 1/2" or so. Any tips on lining up the engine? I would imagine the center should be in the same position as on the 650R, in order to keep the mass of the reciprocating assembly aligned with the center of the bike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRjoe
quite a few problems you got there Lukas.
I don't think your going to get away with using the ktm frame. The front sprocket height in relation to the swing arm has to be the nail in the coffin.

You could make a jig using the 640 frame as a template and then make your own trellis frame based on the 640 geometry but if your not confident with the welder then it's going to be expensive.

It must have been heart breaking to realize that it wasn't going to fit.

I hope you find a solution.
Come on Joe, I am expecting better from you. No nails in the coffin just yet. Maybe I'll end up with one of those GS lumps as well, I like that removable lower frame rail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overlandr
Pretty much what the others have said esp. re the 2 big serious probs. With all those problems, it seems like you'd need to get into the framebuilding business and then you've still got to find the perfect tank. That said, you'd be rapidly heading down the path of an updated version of the now rather dated EX-500 engined weber twin. Good on you for getting so far

I wish I had the engineering knowledge to design my own frame, but considering that I work in finance that is probably never going to happen.

If I don't find a somewhat straightforward solution - or a talented fabricator willing to work for minimum wage - I'll have to go a different route. Even though I had some cool ideas, I really didn't get all that far unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthroamer
I've enjoyed following this thread but I can't help but think that whatever you end up with is going to be held up to a modern KTM 690 on the dualsport end or something like the Versys on the street end. That's if you do everything right.

What is it that you envision?
I envision MY ideal travel bike, a mix between 690 and Versys with some improvements is actually pretty much it. With all the choice in the market, none of the available bikes come close off the shelf, and most have some dealbreaking (for me) weakness that cannot be changed.

I can give you an explanation with more details if you want.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kyns
Deffinately looks kinda harder than i expected.

Modifying the frame is not an issue, if you can weld. ?

I think your biggest problem is, as Pulasky mentioned. That the counter sprocket is too high on the frame. If i was you, i would put the swing arm on and try fitting the engine in more upright position, in the frame and see how everything lines up then... With the engine more upright, there might be more room for the throttle bodys too... And counter sprocket would be lower.

Lot of problems for sure, tanks not fitting, frame not coperating...

It would be sad to see this project ending now. But a lot of work to finish...

The small vent on the valve cover, i think is for the PAIR system, that feeds fresh air to the pipe. My ER 6 had an electric valve on top of the air box, that led from the air box to the valve cover. I'll see if i can find a link to a Ninja site that had info about it.

What ever you deside to do, good luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyns
Here's a link to a forum, that has info on the PAIR valve...

http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r...ja-650r-3.html


How are the registration regulations in Austria? Can you get a "modified" frame registered there. Over here it would not be a walk in a park...

That's a good tip. I can accept loosing some ground clearance by dropping the engine, as I can re-raise the chassis with longer suspension. I was easily able to flat foot the bike before, and since the seat can also be lowered a bit it will end up being similar to stock. Will report here how it works out.

Good to know about the valve on the head as well, from reading the link I could just close that off.

Unfortunately getting all the changes legally approved will be absolutely impossible in Austria. The good thing is that the LC4 frame is already registered, so I just have to pass the yearly inspections by an authorized mechanic. I know a few, and they have to check mostly on safety and environmental aspects such as lights working, brake system, tire size and wear, EU approved silencer, emissions etc. So I should be ok as long as I don't have an official inspection by the government. This bike would mostly be ridden on trips outside of Austria anyway, so I can live with that risk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overlandr
Hey Lukas, Maybe you can weigh the LC4 and ER6 engines for comparison?
I posted the weight somewhere in this thread, IIRC it was 40,1 kgs for the naked LC4 and 54 kgs for the ER6. The latter was measured on an analog scale, and as I found out it was still full of oil. I will re-weigh it with a more accurate digital scale this weekend. LC4 engine is already sold, but that figure should be accurate anyway.



I'll play around with the engine fitment some more, and if there is no way to do it I will put the project on hold until I find another suitable engine or frame....

I just wish KTM would save me the trouble and finally come out with a 690 ADV based on the Rally Replica, with a wide ratio gearbox and sorted out EFI system....


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Old 02-17-2010, 04:46 AM   #296
katumo_jtb
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You could solve the countershaft problem by using an idler sprocket, like the original Horst Leitner ATK's, to keep chain tension constant (more or less) throughout suspension range. In your case you may have to run the chain loose because of the countershaft height, but hey, it's still a KTM, right?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4299582.pdf

The rest can be solved by cutting and welding, but you're basically dealing with a custom frame at this point. I would love to see you do it -- this is the kind of crazy project I would do. However, I often end up having to change directions after finding out what doesn't work. No matter what direction you choose, you will have something unique at the end

If you figure out the motor mounts and measure the dimensions of a stock LC4 frame for a frame builder, you could probably have it done for a couple thousand dollars. I was quoted $2500 by a shop for a similar project. Then you can have confidence in the materials and welding.

John
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:28 AM   #297
Aussie Steve
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Too late at night so you'll get some jibberish, but you'll live.

Countershaft problem:

Looks like theres room for a layshaft underneath the back of engine, will solve height issue and put chain on the right side for standard swingarm.

Exhaust problem:

You've already figured it out.

Throttle body issue:

Remove adapters and have new ones made up to cant throttle bodies down, cut them in half and angle them out with small pod filters. alternatively run manifolds around to throttle body where the airbox is,. again small pod filters
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:41 AM   #298
DRjoe
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Sorry for being so negative Lukas but the kwaka engine looks like it realy isn't going to fit the ktm frame. maybe a chenge in tactics is needed.



As i understand it the main problem with where the counter sprocket is located is not the fact that the chain has to get round the swing arm some how its the fact that when mr Lukas pins mr throttle he's goona get some serious squatting in the rear end.
Really the top of the sprocket needs to be as close as possible to the the top of the swing arm so that there is minimal leverage on the swing arm when the chain pulls the rear sprocket.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:20 AM   #299
jdrocks
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the number i run across for the 650 twin is 120# with the throttle bodies, so you're real close as is. that 30# difference is tough to get back if you're looking to be KTM light with the finished bike built around that engine.

stretch the wheelbase and put a linked rear on the kawasaki frame. if you wanted to change the rake also, it would still be easier than building a new frame. the KTM clamps/forks are easy to swap in.

you better have a certified guy doing the welding on all those new joints in the KTM frame if you continue that route. the dynamic loads on those frames when you're pounding down the trail are pretty high.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:18 AM   #300
mousitsas
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Hi Lukas! The more problems you come across the better you will feel after you solve them.
On the sprocket location issue, the solution, at least on conceptual level is not hard. Running two chains and an aditional shaft (as have already been suggested) would do the trick. Main problem would be the lubrication of the extra shaft, but it can be solved if the bearings are in an enclosed housing with an oil feed.

An other solution would be to use your current lc4 frame as a jig and build two ducatesque trelis sections, one from each side, connecting the head section with the swingarm section. After all welding is done, then hack the top section of the frame so you can slide the engine up till sprocket sits at the desired position. I guess that you could do that welding yourself after a few hours of MIG self-training.

Of course, if you do all that, then maybe it would be a better idea to start with the er6 frame in the first place and just build a swingarm of the desired length and shock mounting location.

Any way, this is brainstorming and hence, no idea is too silly.

good luck.

mousitsas screwed with this post 02-17-2010 at 11:24 AM
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