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Old 04-01-2010, 04:45 AM   #316
Mezo
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Sorry mate ive been busy with my own thread, she`s tight alright, but we like it tight eh


I will go to bed tonight & give it some deep deep thought Lukas.

But to be honest i think you have the solution already

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Old 04-01-2010, 09:10 AM   #317
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Guess it's long overdue that I chime in again.

Lots of good ideas and helpful links posted guys, I appreciate that a lot! I have done some more soul searching and tinkering (thanks to Chris H. I had access to a complete 660 Rally - it had just done Paris-Dakar in the Heroes Legend so it was still a bit dirty - to see how my pieces are actually supposed to fit together), and still think this project is feasible. Just a lot of time and effort, in fact more than I can commit at this point. Open issues:


As some of you have suggested I rotated the engine clockwise and dropped it a bit in the frame to align the output shaft with the swingarm pivot. This makes the oil pan stick out below the former bottom rails a bit, but as the rear frame rails are at their widest at this point, I think it gives the chain enough clearance even with the engine centered right to left. I won't know for sure until I can figure out where the exact centerline is, though... If this works, it would be a matter of limiting the travel a bit so the bike doesn't bottom out, and maybe using shorter suspension links to jack the rear up a bit. In total about 2-3" should do, if I wrap the new bottom rails around the oil pan instead of under it, so that they are just slightly lower. I will also have to look at what parts protrude below the oil pan flange, maybe there is some more room to be gained by fly cutting the pan and welding on a new bottom as Roadracer Al has suggested.

However I won't be able to get around making some custom fuel tanks, as I had feared the split ones from the rally will be way too wide because of how much wider the twin is:








And here is how wide it's supposed to:




The way I would go about this is to mask off the side of the frame once the engine is mounted and fiberglass over it. This would give me a custom molded inner flange, which I could join up with a copy of the outer shell of the Rally tanks. Then lay them up in carbon/Kevlar/fuel proof epoxy. Of course I would lose quite a bit of capacity, but with 24L rear tanks this is not really a concern. The outer appearance and width would be mostly the same, and I could keep the mounting points for the front fairing in the right location.


Something else not that simple to solve is the interference at the head intakes. The dual Kawasaki throttle bodies are way wider than the frame and subframe:




There is no room to place them below the rails either, even with the engine dropped a bit:




If I made some longer inlet tubes to get them above the frame rails, they would stick into the area where the seat is:




As I had mentioned earlier, I think the only solution is to custom make a 2 into 1 adapter (with injectors in each elbow) and use a single throttle body in between the existing frame rails. It should end up in the lower part of the big black bulb of the Rally airbox seen here:



Again doable, but a lot of extra work as this means an entire custom fuel injection system (the stock Kawasaki ECU will not know what to do with a single TB). Due to the angles I am not sure how well it work work either. Going to get in touch with Mezo's brother about this, if he takes after their late father he should be a bit of a porting/gas flow wizard as well.

So A LOT remains to be done.

And then, while googling motorcycle frames to get some inspiration, I came across this tempting picture:




That certainly looked attractive! Similar layout to a KTM LC8, with linkless suspension, a trellis frame, but enough room for a parallel twin (LC8 is too narrow). Turns out it's from the small BMW twin bikes with the 798cc Rotax engine. While I had a brief ride on one previously, I was scheduled to test one for an entire weekend a month later. As luck would have it though, I stumbled across this bike a bit before that: 2008 F650GS with a few upgrades, one owner, 5k miles, and some "light" front damage:




I had just finished fixing up the ER-6N I originally bought as a donor bike, and sold it with a good profit. So of course instead of putting the money aside, in a weak moment I gave in to temptation and picked up the Beemer.

In the mean time I have had my weekend with the F800, and must say that it's a fun bike. Good power but not overwhelming, and very smooth at higher speeds on the highway - exactly what I was missing in all the singles. At the same time the weight and bad suspension scared me in the dirt, even more so than the big KTM twins do.

So for now I will have to put the Katamaki project on hold. I want to put some WP forks (mostly figured out already), 21"/18" wheelset and an upgraded shock on the Beemer, to see how I like it in that configuration.




If the overall chassis works well, I might just use that as a base for a proper build up instead of the LC4 frame. I have to admit that I am doubtful it will work as well for me as the Versys engine in the smaller frame would....

Lukas
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:37 AM   #318
mousitsas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
Guess it's long overdue that I chime in again.

.................

If the overall chassis works well, I might just use that as a base for a proper build up instead of the LC4 frame. I have to admit that I am doubtful it will work as well for me as the Versys engine in the smaller frame would....

Lukas


Why didnt you use the ER6 frame and engine to do that project and went to the heavier F800 platform?
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:03 PM   #319
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Wink here we go again......

Love your work and ideas, hard to keep up at times but inspiring all the same......can't wait to see your custom tanks if you ever get around to it.

Speaking of tanks, whats your thoughts about the "safety" of the tanks? I am planning to build some for my DL once I get home but thats to only thing that I have a concern about (disregarding my ability to build them). How are you planning the tanks in regards to a crash? I am assuming that since your after a light weight bike that crash bars are out........

By the way, keep up the ideas
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:35 PM   #320
Mezo
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Thumb Re-angle your inlets

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM
Guess it's long overdue that I chime in again.



Going to get in touch with Mezo's brother about this, if he takes after their late father he should be a bit of a porting/gas flow wizard as well.
Good luck Lukas

I sent him an email saying you would be in touch, i said you was a nice chappie & all.

He`s pretty flat out right now doing his body off restore for the show at the end of the month, but i did have a think & i thought why not change it to sidedraught with shorter/stumpy throttle bodies.

From what i can see from the above pic (squint) the inlet castings turns upwards to the rubber boots correct ? a semi downdraught setup, could you machine that angle off (redirect) to a sidedraught & then fit compact throttle bodies with a pair of K&N`s or was you offroading the machine & needed to use an airbox?



Had a look again, will it hit the starter motor Lukas ?

Mezo.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:19 AM   #321
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Lukas - congrats on the BMW purchase. I rode the street version (RT?) for a day, and found it a pleasant-enough bike, and agree with your assessment.

It seems that you can make the stock throttle bodies work by fabricating new top frame rails that are wider and maintain the stock tank mounting location, just further apart.

Have you tried flipping the stock intake boots over to make the TBs more horizontal? They may fit under the rails when the motor is lowered to accommodate the sprocket location.
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:37 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM







I think, you should really build a jig, for the engine and frame. ( just a simple one, to hold them in right angle and place ) Only then you will see how everything lines up.

For how it looks, the engine, even on an er 6 is more upright. ( your's is just sitting on the pan!!!!!!!!! )

And have you checked if the frame is in the right angle either? Line the steering head tube in the same angle as it is in the LC4, for starters...

Connect the swing arm and wheel temporarily, to the frame to measure the chain line.

The throttle bodies need more space. So you basically just need to cut 20cm piece of, from the upper frame rails. If you had the frame on a JIG you could cut it... Then get some new tubes bent. Fit and tag them in place yourself. Then take the frame to a machine shop, for a proper welding. Machine shop costs can be funded by selling the BMW!


Aaand i have a stupid idea for the fuel tank problem: You said, you have 26 litre rear tanks??? WOW! That Kawi engine uses about 7 litres for 100 kilometers, so with just the rear tanks you could get allmost 400 kilometers. Then you can just cut the front tanks open and use them as fairings. That way you can get them in right place even with the twin.

So yeah, get to work!




kyns screwed with this post 04-03-2010 at 02:00 AM
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:23 AM   #323
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:03 PM   #324
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IMO I think you will eventually cut off the headstock(only for the frame number) and then be forced to scratch build a one off frame to suit.Not a job for the fainthearted without jigs and major,major body work after that.good luck and best wishes!
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:21 PM   #325
SamM
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Sorry to dig this one back up Lukas and I know that you have moved on to the BMW, but I can't stop thinking about this project!

Honestly, I think by cutting the frame (at the red marks) and then bending new tubing for the frame (teal marks), you could easily rotate that engine for better clearance for the efi. It looks like it would still have plenty of room for front wheel travel. Square tubing may be a better choice for frame material. KTM already used square tubing in it. After my other bike projects are done, I may have to get into another one. My wife is going to kill me!

I also think the Versys engine would fit into my '08 KLR650 frame. And I still have a KTM 950 frame sitting in my shop. That KTM trellis frame would probably be the best frame to do this with. It would need to be shortened though.

Any updated pictures of your Beemer project.

Thanks!

SamM

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Old 06-06-2010, 03:05 PM   #326
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Just found this thread.

Also, had the same idea started to try and fit a ninja 650 engine in a xr650l frame a couple of months ago decided it wasn't going to work out the way I wanted it to. So I'm going to build a custom frame for the motor. Anyway here are some pictures of it. I cant believe this engine weights only 125lbs where a xr650l engine is 110lbs. Good luck on your project

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Old 06-06-2010, 04:28 PM   #327
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that's bloody close
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Old 06-13-2010, 02:31 PM   #328
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Needs help with er6n on aprilia sxv!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SquareWire
Good afternoon fellows!

I'm the guy with the custom built Aprilia SXV with ER6N engine, you might have seen it on youtube (link) . Lukas invited me here, so I'm ready to help to whom require.

Any questions please feel free to ask.

Lukas, first of all, however I'm not sure about the LC 4's frame, I guess you'll need to modify it like I needed to with my SXV. I'll make many photos about mine so you'll probably see the main "direction" . I also will make a detailed list about the process later. Gotta go now, se you all later.

cheers
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:44 AM   #329
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Has anyone out there tried a ninja/ex500 engine in a dirt bike chassis? It looks to be shorter height than the versys/ninja 650 engine and shorter front to rear than the GS500 engine.
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:55 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by luckett
Has anyone out there tried a ninja/ex500 engine in a dirt bike chassis? It looks to be shorter height than the versys/ninja 650 engine and shorter front to rear than the GS500 engine.
http://www.rallytwin.com/
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