The KaTaMaki 650 ADV project (KTM LC4 gets a twin engine swap)

[Beezer]

Yep, the A65 is the best looking (cleanest) of the Brit twins, but power to weight ratio is still poor by comparison with today's motors. Plus you have the potential rt side bearing problems.... unless you go with the roller bearing & end feed conversion. There is a way to stroke it to 750 & big bore out to 900, but all that is pushing what's there. And you still have a 2 valve per cyl engine & no balancer. I have done all these things except the big bore. If I ever went back to a vintage Brit twin, I would use a post '76 Triumph 750 for the base. That is the most refined (reliable) of the lot up the the end of the Meridan age.

[LukasM]

Ok, here is an update:

Arrived home in Vienna today and found this puppy waiting for me in the garage (which is finally finished after a year of construction, this is going to be awesome to work in!):



Pretty much stock with no exciting mods, but definitely very clean and in great shape. Engine sounds and works well (for an LC4 ) so if the twin idea doesn't work out I can at least still ride it like this.

Thanks to the measurements I got from you guys I was able to place a 650 engine in the chassis - at least virtually on my computer screen. Definitely very tight and I am pretty sure the water pump on the front of the engine will interfere. Might have to replace the lower frame tubes....

I guess I will only know once I try in the real world so I am trying to find an engine now. Preferably in Europe as shipping from the States is $$$$, but I am keeping my eyes open on Ebay.com as well.

Originally Posted by kyns

I had 07 Kawasaki er 6 n.

Anyway, what i wanna say is: the engine is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!
During two summers 07/08 i did about 3500 km of full on track miles with it.
You can't break one of these. If i had a garage i wouldn't have sold mine, instead i would have build a rally bike out of it.
So please man build it.

By the way my Er had 77 horses and 69 nm of torgue, with modifications. So it should do gravel road power slides!!!!!

What kind of track bike you got Lukas?

Great to hear that, and I have been reading the same info on a few Versys and Ninja 650 forums. 77 horses in an LC4 frame sounds scary - but fun!!

My track bike is a Yamaha R6 that I built from a 2003 frame with a bunch of 2005 (USD forks etc) and aftermarket parts. It has about 10.000 track kms on the engine without any problems. I'll be keeping it for a while, cheap to race and maintain and still way faster than I am.

[mousitsas]

an alternative thought would be to use a dr750/800 frame which is more spacious and strong and put all the KTM bits on it as well as the kawa engine.

[Aussie Steve]

Watching with interest.

If the water pump is a prob there are easier ways than modifying the frame.

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...umps-list.aspx

Probably a bit too expensive and the helper pumps are all you are likely to need. Remember prices are in AUD so the Euro prices would be almost half.

[DRjoe]

when i was 17 I started putting an yamaha xs250 engine in a ktm two smoke 250 frame, it required splicing the bottom frame rails to the ktm frame.
It looked the bees knees
I never got it finished though.

any way the moral of the story is its not that hard to change the bottom frame rails and you could use the engine as a stressed member.

[markk53]

Originally Posted by DRjoe

when i was 17 I started putting an yamaha xs250 engine in a ktm two smoke 250 frame, it required splicing the bottom frame rails to the ktm frame.
It looked the bees knees
I never got it finished though.

any way the moral of the story is its not that hard to change the bottom frame rails and you could use the engine as a stressed member.

There was a guy in Massillon Ohio who did the same thing, but with a CR80 engine/frame in an MB5 chassis. The chamber actually fit up fairly well too. He said it was kind of awesome to blow by cars on I-77 doing like 80 mph! We actually used to have some pictures of the bike at the dealership.

[LukasM]

One thing that I was not looking forward to was the fuel tank situation. Since the LC4 is a single cylinder it is of course rather narrow, exactly the opposite of the parallel twin. Add to that that the lobes of the adventure tank hang down quite far, and I was already having nightmares about trying to make a custom carbon/kevlar tank. Today I got to measure the underside of a rally tank (my adventure tank is still on the bike). Turns out things are not as bad as I thought, I might be getting off easy.

The 650 twin measures 26cm across the cylinders:




The KTM tank measures about 32cm across this opening and only tapers near the top where it sits on the frame backbone:




Does anybody know if these tanks can be shaped a little bit should I need it, ie with a heat gun?



On another note, I have expanded my search from only engines to include wrecked bikes. This would have the advantage of getting wiring harness, ECU, gauges, FI and all that stuff at once. After selling off the rest of the parts cost should be very low as well.

In fact I have already found a very suitable candidate, which unfortunately is located quite far in Germany. No bike shipping company wants to transport it because the forks are broken off and the bike is not easy to move around. Hopefully I will be able to work out something with them, maybe with the front strapped to a furniture dolly.

It's a 2007 ER-6N, the naked version of the Ninja sold in Europe.

[LukasM]

Originally Posted by Aussie Steve

Watching with interest.

If the water pump is a prob there are easier ways than modifying the frame.

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...umps-list.aspx

Probably a bit too expensive and the helper pumps are all you are likely to need. Remember prices are in AUD so the Euro prices would be almost half.

An electric water pump might be an option, I'd have to see how it interfaces with the engine. I actually ran a DC unit on a Ford V8 in a Mustang which gave up on me at some point. Bought it used though, so I didn't really blame them. In general I'm a 'keep it simple stupid' guy (or maybe not looking at what I'm doing here ) so if possible I'll stick with the mechanical version. We'll see once I have an engine here.

Originally Posted by mousitsas

an alternative thought would be to use a dr750/800 frame which is more spacious and strong and put all the KTM bits on it as well as the kawa engine.

Hmmm.... If possible I'd like to stick with as much LC4 stuff as possible, I really like the looks and parts available for the platform. Replacing the lower frame rails shouldn't be more complicated than adapting all of that to the DR Big. Don't you have one of those though? You could start your own project instead of making me do all the hard work!

Originally Posted by DRjoe

when i was 17 I started putting an yamaha xs250 engine in a ktm two smoke 250 frame, it required splicing the bottom frame rails to the ktm frame.
It looked the bees knees
I never got it finished though.

any way the moral of the story is its not that hard to change the bottom frame rails and you could use the engine as a stressed member.

Yeah Joe, the more I look at this, the less of a big deal I think it is. We'll probably have to make some sort of jig that aligns the swingarm mounts and the steering tube to make sure it doesn't distort when we put in the new rails.

I also found out that the frame is made of ChroMo, specifically 25CrMo4, and I already have a supplier for new tubing. Even if I manage to do the fabrication and bending myself, I'll have it welded by specialist, though.

Not sure how the ER-6N frame looks like, but if I get a whole bike I might be able to use the lower rails like you suggested.

[Aussie Steve]

With the polyetheylene(sp?) tanks (i.e the hardparts tank not the normal painted one). People fill with hot water and pressurise to expand the tanks for increased volume.

So I reckon with the hardparts tank and some careful application of heat you should be right for some gentle persuasion aorund the engine.

Originally Posted by LukasM

An electric water pump might be an option, I'd have to see how it interfaces with the engine. I actually ran a DC unit on a Ford V8 in a Mustang which gave up on me at some point. Bought it used though, so I didn't really blame them. In general I'm a 'keep it simple stupid' guy (or maybe not looking at what I'm doing here ) so if possible I'll stick with the mechanical version. We'll see once I have an engine here.




Hmmm.... If possible I'd like to stick with as much LC4 stuff as possible, I really like the looks and parts available for the platform. Replacing the lower frame rails shouldn't be more complicated than adapting all of that to the DR Big. Don't you have one of those though? You could start your own project instead of making me do all the hard work!




Yeah Joe, the more I look at this, the less of a big deal I think it is. We'll probably have to make some sort of jig that aligns the swingarm mounts and the steering tube to make sure it doesn't distort when we put in the new rails.

I also found out that the frame is made of ChroMo, specifically 25CrMo4, and I already have a supplier for new tubing. Even if I manage to do the fabrication and bending myself, I'll have it welded by specialist, though.

Not sure how the ER-6N frame looks like, but if I get a whole bike I might be able to use the lower rails like you suggested.

[Max Kool]

I know it's a sidestep, but the other day I read here on Advrider about some guy who shoehorned a DR650SE engine into a DR350 frame.

Looks like the typical LukasM project!

[SamM]

LukasM,
Very nice! I'm looking to do a similar project, after I finish my KLR USD fork conversion/rebuild. The bike will use the USD forks, swingarm, rear PDS shock and Brembo brakes from a 950. We'll probably do a custom frame with the 950 steering head and clamps. I already have all that stuff boxed up and waiting. The ER-6/Ninja/Versys engine looks like the hot ticket. Are you going to start a separate build thread? If so, please post a link.

SamM

[dentvet]

1. have somebody verify that the crash impact didn't damage the engine mounting points on that wreck before you buy it, cracks would suck.

2. where are the pics of your cobra???

3. this ad is near me, fwiw:
Suzuki SV650 Engine (Winchester, VA)

---

Reply to: sale-u6znt-1165258896@craigslist.org ^{[Errors when replying to ads?]}
Date: 2009-05-11, 12:52PM EDT


I have the cylinders, heads and cases for my SV650. Decided to part the bike out a few months ago (bad crank). Sold everything but the engine. All these parts are in great condition, bike was an '02 with 13,000 miles on it. Email me with a reasonable offer. Pictures available on request.

[dwayne]

Originally Posted by SamM

LukasM,
Very nice! I'm looking to do a similar project, after I finish my KLR USD fork conversion/rebuild. The bike will use the USD forks, swingarm, rear PDS shock and Brembo brakes from a 950. We'll probably do a custom frame with the 950 steering head and clamps. I already have all that stuff boxed up and waiting. The ER-6/Ninja/Versys engine looks like the hot ticket. Are you going to start a separate build thread? If so, please post a link.

SamM

Just curious, what will be left of the KLR besides the engine and swing arm?

[SamM]

Posted by: dwayne
Just curious, what will be left of the KLR besides the engine and swing arm?

Not sure what you are refering to dwayne? My current KLR project has many KLR parts. It uses the '08 KLR frame, engine, swingarm, rear wheel, electrics, bodywork, etc... I changed the fuel tank, headlight (no fairing), gauges and forks on that one.

The 950 based bike that I decribed above and would like to build next won't have any KLR parts. I'd like to use a dirtbike style frame (maybe from an LC4) and the Versys engine in that one and bolt the 950 forks, swingarm and brakes to it. Sort of a cross between and BMW 800 and a KTM 950 but with the parallel-twin Kawasaki engine. Hope that explains it.

SamM

[BikePilot]

Fantastic project, can't wait to see the finished version!