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Old 10-12-2012, 07:51 AM   #556
snowhawk jockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I wonder how the formula found in this article works out with the height of the stacks and extensions that you found to work the best.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...e/viewall.html


"...N x L = 84,000, where N represents the desired engine rpm to tune for and L is the length in inches from the opening of the ram tube to the valve head..."

Man, great article. I love the origins of technology and this is no exception. The telling quote out of that article is the 3psi increase of charge pressure at the valve. As the author said "like running a mild supercharger, except free"
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:22 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
I know a lot of you with FI engines want to see a more "fair" comparison so you'll be happy to know that Gino has already ordered a new CPR air intake and when he's got it we'll fit it up. I'm sure a tweaked FI system can be made to run much better and Gino is very interested in getting his tweaked so we'll do another comparison.
Is this the space where we say what dynos we would like to see?

Well, I will contribute soon (with Gregor's permission) with a curve of an SE with DNA filter and Sommer's doors. I just need to get round fitting larger mains before I pay my visit to the shop. I believe this setup goes as far as a stock box can go without severely hacking it.

mousitsas screwed with this post 10-12-2012 at 08:39 AM
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #558
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>>I wonder how the formula found in this article works out with the height of the stacks and extensions that you found to work the best

Very close. That equation is a simplified version but tends to holds pretty close across engine configurations and in a worst case is still a good starting point. We used it to get a ballpark length (which was a lot longer than the Sudco filter mount) and made a few spacer plates to vary the length and see the effects. There was a small but noticable change for each change in length exactly as expected: longer stacks moved the torque peak down the rpm range, shorter ones move it up. When deciding on the best compromise the bike's use comes into play: for a drag bike or Bonneville land speed racer you are aiming for the highest possible Hp figure. For most race, street, and dirt riding an increase of midrange torque is preferrable to a small increase in top end power as you use the midrange a lot more often than max RPM.

I'm now finalizing the revised one piece design and setting up pricing for the initial kit which will include filters and jets. Anodizing color choice will be black or KTM orange. In the next couple of weeks I'll be adding a TPS bracket, low force throttle spring, and maybe a couple of other goodies. We'll post a link to the venfor forum when it is ready. If interest is high I can try to become a Sudco distributor and offer a complete jetted carb kit with velocity stacks, low tension spring, and TPS sensor.

Can't wait to see Flanny's detailed report.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:39 PM   #559
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I for one am looking forward to being able to purchase the result of all this hard work! I have 39mm FCRs on my 2004 ADV right now and with no TPS at all there is certainly some issues that need resolving. So, while I don't need the carbs themselves, I'll be first in line for everything else!
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:43 PM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
On the dyno the difference was immediately apparent so I'm looking forward to hearing what Flanny thought on his ride back. Umm, Flanny? Maybe he decided not to stop?

Gregor
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Originally Posted by thecosman View Post
Can't wait to see Flanny's detailed report.
Sorry for the delays guys....I had a whole detailed report typed-up, and then I accidentally closed my browser at work when my boss walked in!!!

Okay. So first things first - as I was saying earlier from the road with my phone, the bike is a new bike. Period. Way more power/torque than before. Instantly noticeable.

The first time I rode it after the new stacks and jetting was when we left the shop at the end of the day on Monday to go out for dinner. I had a bitch on the back of the bike, and the front wheel would just lift off the pavement with roll-on throttle through 3rd gear. Now, of course having a (relatively petite) bitch on the back makes this easier, but this was WAY easier that I would usually expect, I mean, not even really trying, and the wheel would just come up 6 inches between shifts. I had to stop pulling wheelies 'cause my bitch just kept squealing in fear, and begging for me to stop. Eventually, I took pity on poor Gregor and just rode the bike normally after that...

The next morning was time to head out of the city and head home. This is where I noticed the power in a meaningful way for the second time. It was light intermittent rain, and the highway was variably wet. I pulled out of my lane to pass another car doing the limit of 55, and when I applied what is normal throttle for me to zip past a car (even in the rain), the back tire just lit up, and slid sideways more than just a little. Holy Smokes!!! I was stunned at how fast it broke free relative to usual. Yup! Guess I'll have to be a bit more careful I thought....

Okay, so where the bike really shined (shone?) was in the tighter twisties of Harryman Park. This is a tight, narrow road through some nice forested hills with lots of elevation changes. AS you'd expect with more torque, the corner exits resulted in fantastic drives without the need to downshift as much.. Just pull through the corner, and ride that massive torque curve. I can't say that it really changed the way I ride, but for sure I didn't feel the need to downshift as much as I migh-have otherwise.

Pulling 3rd gear wheelies over the crest of hills at 70mph is always a hoot too! This is the new norm

I had to stop and call Gregor in the middle of Harryman park that I was giddy-high with torque!!! I was literally hooting in my helmet with how big of a difference those stack made!

Finally, I think the new stacks resulted in a more stable idle. Maybe the stacks just agree better with the 45 pilot jet (which was WAY too rich with the uni filters), but I think I will still try to go down to 42 pilots before the snow flies, since it seemed to run/idle better in the colder Adirondacks later in the day on the way home.

So, there you have it. In short, I'm blown away. I've spend lot's of time and money on aftermarket bits that made big claims, but picking up a 10% gain in mid-range torque and 8% horsepower was WAY beyond my expectations with just the proper bell-mouths. It's nice to know that an old 2005.5 950 can relatively easily have more mid-range torque and horsepower than a 990R in the sweet spot of the rev-range with just some bolt-on mods.

Big shout-out to Chris who is an Engineering design genius and a CNC machine god.

Here is a short video of the dyno room scene while we were tuning my bike - bike sounds great with the stacks in place, and note the popping on decel as a result of the small crack in my rear header pipe.





Flanny screwed with this post 10-12-2012 at 12:49 PM
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:00 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by thecosman View Post
>>I wonder how the formula found in this article works out with the height of the stacks and extensions that you found to work the best

Very close. That equation is a simplified version but tends to holds pretty close across engine configurations and in a worst case is still a good starting point. ...
I do remember finding a better version years ago that took intake cross-section into consideration when I was researching building my own intake for my old DeSoto Hemi.

That's really cool to see another example of the formula working in real life.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:31 AM   #562
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Awesome results guys...I'm looking forward to the 41's...any idea when you might start testing those?
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:49 AM   #563
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Awesome results guys...I'm looking forward to the 41's...any idea when you might start testing those?
An inmate with a spare set not on their bike offered theirs for us to try so probably in a few weeks we'll be able to post an actual dyno comparison back to back of the 39's vs the 41's so we can see exactly what the differences in the curves are. I suspect that we'll see an increase in top end but at the expense of bottom end but on my 990SMR engine it might be better suited and help to flatten out the torque curve.

Now that I feel that I'm on top of the engine I'm encouraged to actually look for a bit more. I've even asked Chris to take a look at my old 950 mill and see if he might be able to build/offer a bolt on big bore kit for the bike. Who needs the new 1190!

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Old 10-13-2012, 11:42 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
I've even asked Chris to take a look at my old 950 mill and see if he might be able to build/offer a bolt on big bore kit for the bike. Who needs the new 1190!


The 950 had so many great features that disappeared in the new models. Gone seems to be a kind of simplicity and elementalism, that some hated, but I love.

I'm extremely curious for these updates. I'm sorta meh on my Superenduro these days, of course I love it, but I also kinda want more. If your investigations bear fruit... I'm interested!
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #565
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Gregor,

Not sure if I missed a discussion about it earlier but have you guys thought about using some Power Blade / Power Now type inserts in the carbs and your new intake stacks?




I don't think it will make a big difference in top numbers on the dyno but in actual drive-ability in my experience they give a noticeable improvement. My KTM engine guru in Belgium says the best way to do it is to start with a 39mm carb and then blend and port everything nicely, to make sure there are no steps or ridges that disturb the flow.

This is a single carb but the same should be doable for your twin setup:






Overall airflow should be somewhere between the 39 and 41 due to the blade, and you get increased velocity when you don't open the throttle all the way.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #566
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+1 ok the intake splitters.

I've made few now and they work great.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:03 PM   #567
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I'm sure Chris will have something to say about the splitters. I believe they're supposed to create a smaller venturi for partial throttle openings but I think there's some expense as well.

For those of you interested in the velocity stacks Chris has redesigned them and is offering them in the vendor forum so you can check him out there. Once he's got his first production stacks I'll shoot some photos as I hope to have a set from the first batch for my bike. I'll be curious to hear feedback from those of you who get them.

I'm going to continue to do more work on my bike to see what I can discover about the 41's and I've given Chris my old 950 engine to see if he can create a big bore kit for the 950/990's. He's built his own V-4 Moto2 engine and created the molds to have his engine sand cast so he's certainly got the chops to do it. It might not be possible due to case restrictions but hopefully he'll figure it out when he opens up my old 950 mill.

I am all for being a guinea pig for this kind of development and besides, this thread is called Mission Creep.

Gregor

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Old 10-16-2012, 12:23 AM   #568
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I've given Chris my old 950 engine to see if he can create a big bore kit for the 950/990's.
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Gregor, its a pleasure to wake up in little Denmark to read this fantastic thread. The video on the dyno with all the boneheads where great. Really nice to see some bike roaring. Your take on unknown terrain with this engine/carb combination is brave. But im sure there is room for at turbo...

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:04 AM   #569
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It might not be possible due to case restrictions but hopefully he'll figure it out when he opens up my old 950 mill.

Oh it's possible. Paul from OZ built his SE into a 1090cc.

"STD 950 Se Motor is 100 x 60

Mine will be 105 x 62.4

Custom made forged pistons, HC
Crankshaft from 990 (62.4 stroke)
40mm Titanium Inlet Valves
Heads ported and flowed
Balanced and lightened bottom end
990 SD R Camshafts

It made 122.4 RWHP, up from 94 STD. Most importantly, an extra 15 Nm through the middle... It wheel-stands in 4th gear, no shit... It's apart again, being treated to 50mm Akra headers and EFI. 140 here we come!"


Keep in mind before beeing rebuilt this bike was ridden 43.000 km across all of Africa and then across Asia to Magadan.... (www.donkeyandthemule.com.au)




More info here:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328225
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:44 AM   #570
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Mikael thanks - I've enjoyed watching your thread as well. It's nice to finally realize some gains from all the work so far. Now I'm trying to push Chris to keep the momentum going. My bike is still in NYC for the foreseeable future and there's a spare old 950 engine just sitting there waiting to taken apart.

Lukas, I just found that last night. It's super cool and the build is very clean. There's also the German company that took a SuperDuke to 102.2mm so it seems that you don't need to modify the cases to go oversize. I would love to put this on my bike and see it go to 1089cc's because every little bit larger I go makes those big ports of mine all the more useful. Plus, I did threaten Flanny over a year ago:

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Originally Posted by sakurama View Post


I threatened to open a can of fabrication whoop ass on Flanny years ago and the time has come. Since my last update here I've aquired a mill, a lathe, a tig welder and the skills to use them. I don't have the time or money for this but that won't stop me. I'm going to build a Flannymobile killer. Get ready Beeeatch!

Gregor
Really, there's little I won't do or spend to continue opening this can of whoop ass on Flanny.

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