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Old 11-29-2012, 02:50 PM   #601
snowhawk jockey
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Turn key for the nonmechanical would make the FCR's much more accessable. There would only be price resistance, instead of "will it start" uncertainty, after the solutions are in place. The value of the complete package speaks for itsself and there would be the addition of confidence in the system for a "street level" user.

Hope that choke solution is worth the development. I have fuel fouled plugs, with all the acc pumping I do to start up.

An additional consideration for choking:
Put the choke in the velocity stack!

Kinda against max dyno numbers, and you could say I stole the idea from briggs and stratton, but a razor thin flap on a pivot shaft, mounted through the velocity stack, would produce a true choke effect.

The tech way to do it would be to use a plunging guillitine that slides into the tract for choking and becomes flush with the I.D. stack wall when retracted. Like a power valve blade on a two-stroke exhaust port, only on the dry side of the intake.

This integration eliminates the expensive and risky(gotta source those internals) keihn conversation and becomes a matter of Chris and mastercam having a few beers together with the CNC.
More beers, and this issue will be choked, I say...

edit to add: It also adds a sku to the offering, choked or unchoked stacks?
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:09 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowhawk jockey View Post
Turn key for the nonmechanical would make the FCR's much more accessable.
And even the mechanical with limited time/resources....

1 by 1, some of the issues I had been looking to solve with the FCR's have been solve here in this thread

The only issue I have left to solve, when this kit becomes available, is some kind of 'airbox'. Just to give the whole intake side the same kind of resistance to water that the original airbox/snorkel had. I've actually laid the SE (with original airbox/CV's) over in shallow-ish water and was quite confident no water had gotten in...
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:19 PM   #603
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I have no idea what Snowhawk said, it's been one of those days, but instead of going to all that trouble, is it possible to make a choke analog like Aprilia did with the SXV and RXV's? Granted, the little plastic throttle lock was shitty, but in my mind I'm (hearing voices) seeing something that will lock the throttle cables into a couple of positions. Spin the throttle, lock it in "half choke", spin it further and then lock it in "full choke".

I've never seen these carbs but if there's a way to mechanically lock the carbs in a _% open position then would that not accomplish the same thing?
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:51 PM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katoom119 View Post
I have no idea what Snowhawk said, it's been one of those days, but instead of going to all that trouble, is it possible to make a choke analog like Aprilia did with the SXV and RXV's? Granted, the little plastic throttle lock was shitty, but in my mind I'm (hearing voices) seeing something that will lock the throttle cables into a couple of positions. Spin the throttle, lock it in "half choke", spin it further and then lock it in "full choke".

I've never seen these carbs but if there's a way to mechanically lock the carbs in a _% open position then would that not accomplish the same thing?
Those bikes were EFI so they didn't need a "choke" per se. The sensors can tell if the engine is hot or cold and adjust the mixture so the bike will start. The throttle lock wasn't even really needed.

On the FCR's though you really need gas to be metered in to assist in the starting and to keep the bike running until it's warm. As Snowhawk says you have to use the accelerator pump to basically prime the engine with enough gas to start but the trouble is that initial gas is enough to get the bike to crank and start but not enough to get it to run. If you attempt to open the throttle you kill the engine with too much air before the pumps could get gas in there. You're left with trying to over prime it to get it to run just long enough to take a small amount of throttle. If you can get it to idle at all then you can just hold the throttle open until it's warm or use a throttle lock. The real trouble is when it's too cold and you can't get to that point before the battery goes dead. So, it's certainly a pain in the ass.

Chris thinks it would be worth it if he did them in batches of 4-5 sets since there would be a lot of set up for the multiple operations and it would be $250-$300 for the pair. There's not enough time to do it to my set while I'm here right now but I'm going to see if we can't do it and see if it works on my carbs. I'm still bugging Chris to take apart my old 950 engine to see if we can make a big bore kit. I'd leave my bike here for that. It's winter for many people so I'm guessing those with FCR's aren't riding anyway (ha!) so they could afford to send their carbs in for a week or so to have the mod done.

Gregor
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:17 PM   #605
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Was there a final jetting for the new intakes on a 950 (flanny's, I guess)?
Are jets part of the kit?

I have the added expense of schlepping them back & forth across the Atlantic ... but if they came back with everything attached & ready to fit, it could be worth it :)
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:31 PM   #606
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[QUOTE=sakurama;19507863]... ... [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRUNO BOTELHO View Post
That is pure art



Good job!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
...



...
Gregor, in watching this build, I have come to think you should see about showing this bike at The One Motorcycle Show. It would be a perfect fit.

http://theonemotorcycleshow.com/

http://kensan.smugmug.com/Motorcycle...6741&k=GM3JVF8

http://kensan.smugmug.com/Motorcycle...5088&k=2kGzp3S
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:12 PM   #607
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Hi Ken and thanks. It's been quite the bit of mission creep hasn't it? I hope to have the bike back in Portland by then and I loved the show last year. Of course if I can convince Chris to do the big bore I might have to leave the bike until spring. He also has another project that I might end up being part of that would completely change the bike and I can't resist if it happens so my 990 might end up here until spring at least. Not sure if I'm allowed to say what it is though...

I won't miss the show though that's for sure.

Gregor
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:25 PM   #608
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Thanks Gregor, I'm with you now.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:49 PM   #609
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Choking at a crucial point

As Gregor mentions it looks like adding a choke is more difficult than hoped. I did get feedback from Sudco and Keihin that they had no interest in doing anything that they were not already doing so that avenue is out. Keihin's attitude seems to be ' These are race carbs and race bikes don't need chokes. You are using them on a street legal bike? That's illegal so we care even less now.'

Getting a reliable choke circuit designed from scratch is a bit harder than it seems. As the accelerator pump method shows just squirting gas with little to no atomization can lead to plug fouling, not to mention it does not help when idling a cold engine. Restricting the throttle with some sort of flap or guillotine may not work as the slide is already nearly completely closed. With less air going through less fuel will get sucked out of the bowl so it may not richen the mixture at all.

The choke circuit on the FCR-MX is a completely new air passage (opposide of the limiting airflow technique) that uses the partial slot in the face of the throttle slide to direct air above the slide and then past a float bowl feed. When you pull the choke knob you both uncover the fuel bleed and open the air passage at the same time. This allows a relatively well atomized and controllably rich mixture to bypass the throttle slide. It is a nice design and the fact that the same exact cast features are in the FCR twin carbs is both good and frustrating. Good in that I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Frustrating in that they should just machine the damn things with a choke if the metal is already there!

Anyway, it can be done but it is not very automatable. On the FCR39's of Gregor's that I took apart all of the internal seals looked in excellent condition and I wouldn't need to damage them for the upgrade. I feel pretty confident in being able to reseal them properly. The unknown part is how many people are interested. It is a decent amount of work and I would want to do them in 5-10 set groups to maximize efficiency as there is a lot of setup work. The $250-300 price would be to convert 2 carbs including a single remote choke cable that works with the stock KTM handlebar choke lever.

The easiest way for a customer would be to include the option for a new carb order. It would make the most sense to install the TPS and lighter springs at the same time and include the bellmouths as a complete package in the region of $1700. I would do conversions on older carbs but that would take some coordination with new carb orders so that I would have a minimum turnaround time and not be doing them one at a time.

I guess the easiest way to figure out how many people want it is to add an option for the new carbs in the online store and a conversion option for existing carbs and maybe a complete overhaul option for existing carbs: a cleaning and regasketing and installing the TPS bracket, low tenstion springs, choke, rejetting and velocity stacks.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:02 PM   #610
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jetting

Final jetting for the 950 (flanny's bike ) was 155 front and rear and are included with the kit.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:49 AM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakurama View Post
Chris thinks he could do the machining to make the choke fit and be functional but because of the huge amount of work involved it would cost between $250 and $300 but would include the cables, splitter, choke etc.

For those of you with FCR's - is it worth it?
I certainly would think it was worth it!
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:32 AM   #612
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Chris,
Thanks for clarifying why the Briggs choke won't work!

Meet your production minimums by combining the two projects, new and rebuilds, on machine day. You could build a few new ones for inventory and rebuild a few for service. Making the days work worthwhile, without having to carry as many new units in stock to justify the production run.

Let the rebuild guys know that you are doing a run of choke conversions and need their carbs by a (regularly occurring) designated date. Then the job lot is known before the project starts, cause the rebuilds are waiting next to the new bodies for machine time.

Jes' thinkin' out loud, as usual...
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:56 AM   #613
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So yesterday was a shop day except that Gino wanted to come by and work on his bike so my day turned into helping him more than getting work done on my own. He bought a kit to lower his pipes (more like mine) and it needed an adapter as it didn't fit. Simple lathe stuff if you have a lathe - and I'm so happy I do.

Anyway, I sat down with Chris to check out my FCR and see what it looked like. Here's the interior:



That is one very complicated o-ring and it's not available from Keihin. In the background you can see an oval o-ring groove with a dot - that's the future choke passage. Because the carbs are epoxied together it would be impossible to put them back together with just an o-ring so the epoxied surface will actually have to be milled flat as the glue can't be scraped off. Then about four passages have to be bored and tapped and it will require several jigs to be able to get them all square and aligned but the end result will be a factory choke operated just like the stock one from the bars. Very slick. I'm really excited as I didn't think it would be possible. Of course we have to do it now to prove the idea so that's in progress.

So while Chris is working on my 39's inmate Kennyd sent me a set of 41's that he wasn't using. They'd been in a little fire so yesterday I replaced the parts inbetween helping Gino. Today I'm going to install Chris' TPS kit and velocity stacks and try to get them mounted on the bike for either a quick ride around the block or on the dyno. I'm very curious how the torque curve will line up against my 39's but Kenny have some different AP bowls on there so I may either swap them or just see.

The other part that Gino was installing was a neat underseat tank he got from a guy in Hungary I think. It's a stainless tank that fits where the tool kit did.



It's a nice idea but the mounting and details leave a bit to be desired. While Chris was visiting our side of the shop we started discussing the tank which holds 1.5 gallons supposedly. I asked Chris if he could do it from plastic with injection molding and get 2 gallons and of course he said yes. We've been discussing doing a Kickstarter project together because we like the concept and I think this will be it. We have a 3D digitizer arm so Chris is going to map out the subframe with the intention of creating a plastic underseat tank that will fit into any 950/990 and add 2 gallons of gas by using all the available nooks and crannies. Both Gino and I love the idea of a bit more range but we like the look of the dual exhaust and Chris thinks there's room to get the 2 full gallons. Our plan is to have the CAD models done and to make the video and pitch for Kickstarter by January. If enough people think it's cool we make them.

Now that I've got Chris on board to make so much cool stuff for the 950/990 I'm really torn about taking my bike back to Portland!

Gregor
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:08 AM   #614
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2 gallons. That 's like 7.6 liters, right. Or a little over a 100 km extra range.

I followed this thread for the skills and knowledge you guys display. Now there's another reason to keep up.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:53 AM   #615
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It is hard to tell from pictures, but I thought that the way that metal tank was designed, it might trap an air pocket, and not fill all the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rade View Post
...



...
How does that look with the tank in place?



.
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