My 950 Refresh or Mission Creep... - Page 42

Blackbert · 12-02-2012, 07:08 AM

2 gallons. That 's like 7.6 liters, right. Or a little over a 100 km extra range.

I followed this thread for the skills and knowledge you guys display. Now there's another reason to keep up.

MortimerSickle · 12-02-2012, 11:53 AM

It is hard to tell from pictures, but I thought that the way that metal tank was designed, it might trap an air pocket, and not fill all the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rade

...

How does that look with the tank in place?

.

sakurama · 12-03-2012, 07:45 AM

Yes, the top part of the tank by the filler can't be filled unless you were to lift the bike up so it's wasted space. This and the ability to make a very complex part in CAD is something that we can do a lot better. Chris and I will discuss this tonight. Difficulties will be trying to ensure that it works with all different exhausts, bags and years but I think it can be done. We'll probably do a lot of CNC tests in foam or with rapid prototyping before we move to the mold. Done smartly it should work well and smart design is what Chris is great at.

Gregor

MortimerSickle · 12-03-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakurama

Yes, the top part of the tank by the filler can't be filled unless you were to lift the bike up so it's wasted space.
...

I was thinking that with the connecting tubes being on the bottom, air would also be trapped in the rear part of the forward section?

snowhawk jockey · 12-03-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakurama

Yes, the top part of the tank by the filler can't be filled unless you were to lift the bike up so it's wasted space. This and the ability to make a very complex part in CAD is something that we can do a lot better. Chris and I will discuss this tonight. Difficulties will be trying to ensure that it works with all different exhausts, bags and years but I think it can be done. We'll probably do a lot of CNC tests in foam or with rapid prototyping before we move to the mold. Done smartly it should work well and smart design is what Chris is great at.

Gregor

Of course, not forgetting about the second model for short subframe brothers like SE/SM!

DirtJack · 12-03-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakurama

Yes, the top part of the tank by the filler can't be filled unless you were to lift the bike up so it's wasted space. This and the ability to make a very complex part in CAD is something that we can do a lot better. Chris and I will discuss this tonight. Difficulties will be trying to ensure that it works with all different exhausts, bags and years but I think it can be done. We'll probably do a lot of CNC tests in foam or with rapid prototyping before we move to the mold. Done smartly it should work well and smart design is what Chris is great at.

Gregor

Gregor, do you plan to include 990's with ABS in your design?

sakurama · 12-03-2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtJack

Gregor, do you plan to include 990's with ABS in your design?

Yes. The ABS takes the space of the tool box and the plan was to take that space for the the tank but Chris thinks that we could make a mold that would use a bolt in part that could allow for that space but that version of the tank would lose capacity - maybe 1/2 a gallon? My studio mate Tommy has a 990 with ABS so we'll be able to test the prototypes.

Alright, the trains have officially stopped running so unless I get Kenny's 41's installed on my bike tonight ill be stranded in NJ again. Back to work...

Gregor

sakurama · 12-04-2012, 06:58 AM

I didn't know that the Path trains to and from NJ stopped running after hurricane Sandy at 10pm - by the time I finish shooting at the studio and take the two trains and walk/ride the mile to the shop it's a solid hour so last week I went to the shop and worked until midnight as usual and then went to the station to find it closed. I actually called Chris to see if it was just the one station but no - no public transportation between NYC and Jersey City. My only option was to flag down a cab and pay $53 for one way ride through the 1.5 mile Holland tunnel. Yeah, that hurt.

So last night the weather was warm(ish) and I figured I'd be really upset if I didn't manage at least one ride on my bike with the new kit. Besides, I needed to do an install to help Chris create a PDF of instructions and to test the final production parts. Luckily I did as we found several minor issues that he's now correcting.

So 10pm came and went and getting the bike running was the only way I was going to be able to get back to the studio so I was committed. Here's the steps to install the kit.

Chris has created a template that you can cut out and stick on the bracket to mark where to drill. Our first problem was it was off slightly so Kenny, your second set of carbs is now lighter! I drilled the two holes and we found it interfered with the bracket on the back so Chris remade the template and the second worked fine. Use a center punch to mark the center of the holes.

Next use a center drill to do the initial drilling into the bar - center drills are lest apt to wander than a regular drill so this is a "best practice" and not a requirement. Another best practice is to put a drop of oil down before you drill - it saves the drill and makes the drilling go smoother and faster.

Then switch to a 5.5mm regular drill bit, add more oil, and drill the holes.

Next up install the TPS "axle" part - not sure what to call it yet. It's actually a bit of a puzzle and at first I couldn't get it in so this is a step by step. Angle it in under the accelerator pump bar.

Then spin it in counter clockwise.

Then the part should drop onto the throttle pulley. In this shot you can see the roll pin that holds the throttle pulley on - that is where the small conical set screws engage and locate.

Now rotate the part clockwise until it aligns with the roll pin. This is a very small part so be careful to get this alignment.

Chris is including a small tube of blue 242 Locktite with the kits and you use this on the small set screws. Tighten them evenly into the center of the roll pins.

Then attach the TPS bracket to the drilled throttle bracket.

Now you need to hook up and set the TPS. My bike is different than most it seems as on mine it's the yellow and black wires but check your manual and see which are the correct wires to use. My technique is to push the probes of the volt meter past the rubber seals and make contact with the metal.

I use a multimeter but any volt meter that can measure volts DC will work. With the TPS pickup in the bracket and the ignition turned on rotate the unit until you get a reading of between .5 and .6 volts with the throttle closed. Doing the install was invaluable as we discovered that this brackets holes were ever so slightly off so Chris is going to make the adjustment for the production version.

I found it easier to install the velocity stacks before mounting the carbs but after all the above. Also, if you're using the "feel and look" method of syncing the slides you'll want to do that before you put the stacks on as it will be more difficult to get your hand on the slide. I did a quick sync using that method (which is basically touching one slide and watching the other and rotating the throttle to get them to both move at the same time - it's surprisingly accurate).

Then is was bolt on the tanks and button her up. Or, if you're like me, it's bolt on the tanks and button her up and then realize that you didn't change your main jet and take it all apart again and change your main jet. Kenny had a 160 in the 41's and my best run with my 39's was with a 168 but I didn't have a 170 so I went with the 168's.

The last step is to put the seat on and here's where I discovered the last problem: even though we lowered the stacks and filters as much as possible they still interfere with the seat very slightly. I was able to squeeze my seat on top of the filters but it wasn't a good solution. I didn't take a photo but I will later but in the end I pulled the seat and there was a mark from the filters contact (an advantage of having dirt on your bike) and I cut out a small crescent of the plastic seat pan to reveal the foam which has the give needed. Once that was done the seat mounted snugly.

And then I rolled her into the freight elevator, down to the loading dock and out onto the street for my first ride.

Holy hell.

This can't be an honest comparison because I'm using Kenny's 41's with untested jetting so it's not a back to back. But the difference between what I rode a month ago with the standard FCR set up and this is not even in the same ball park. My disappointment in the initial ride was a lack of grunt - the bike felt fast but not really wildly different from what my old bike felt like. I'd done an FCR conversion on my old Duke single and it was a huge increase in torque and wheelies. This wasn't.

Last night after the bike warmed to a steady idle I got on and took off and just for fun gave it some goose. The front came up so fast I almost flipped and I was into the limiter. I shifted to second and was amazed that it wheelied in second like it used to in first - any throttle, any rpm, twist it and the front climbs instantly. Second is the new First. It was so fun I'm amazed I didn't get a ticket as I wheelied that bike away from every single stop light all the way home. It feels like it could wheelie off the throttle in third but it doesn't quite and there's a hesitation when you whack it in third that might be related to the accelerator pumps as Kenny has some aftermarket pumps on his bike. I think if this is worked on it might just lift in third on the throttle only. It will lift with the clutch.

But to me it was night and day. The torque was far greater than Gino's 990R on the bottom - it was stump pulling, arm yanking torque that just put a smile on my face the whole way home. This was what I imagined when I bought the FCR's.

It was a royal bitch to start the bike, which Chris witnessed, so we know that the chokes have to be done to make the whole thing an everyday livable affair but that's in process. But right now I would gladly live without chokes to be able to twist that throttle and feel the bike jump forward like a freight train. Coming over the Manhattan bridge I went through the gears and saw 110mph before I knew what was happening. The bike is really transformed into a hooligan machine. I'm going to have to be really careful as this could be very bad for my license.

One thing for sure though is that there's no shortage of torque with the 41's. It feels linear and amazing. Kenny, want to sell this set? I will want to run the bike on a dyno and compare the curves to the 39's but I will either sell my 39's or bore them out.

It was a long time coming but it was worth the wait. Sometimes mission creep has some huge benefits!

Gregor

Katoom119 · 12-04-2012, 08:27 AM

Happy you finally got this done!

TTRider · 12-04-2012, 10:56 AM

Dear Gregor,

thank you and all the contributors soooooo much for doing this incredible stuff !

I really think theres is the same spirit that drives people like michelangelo painting the chapel or people trying and trying to find the right carbon ligament for the light bulb. I mean anything you will ever buy finished will be second to something you work yourself on. Everytime i work on my bike (in a much more simple way than you do) i learn a little more and my relationship to the bike is getting better.

Thank you for taking us along this fantastic trip to the perfect 950-990 KTM carb.Version by GregorHalenda !!!

snowhawk jockey · 12-04-2012, 11:43 AM

41's...41's...41's...41's!!!

Them kids thinkin' they's give sumthin' up with the 41's aint feel'ed 'em pull at the sockets...

Third gear, roll on wheelie's are possible. They are more power wheelie style and hover a few inches off the ground, usually just long enough to get noticed.

sakurama · 12-04-2012, 12:43 PM

Thanks TT!

I realize I'm lucky to have the support of some really talented friends. It's beyond satisfying to be able to solve a problem and make a difference in almost any capacity but when I can do it on my bike, which to me is my passion, it's even more satisfying. I started all this because I wanted to make my 950 something special and I think I'm really getting somewhere with it. I have a few more things I'm talking with Chris about - things I'm not ready to discuss - and I think they would take the bike to the next level.

Of course they would also be the cost of another bike...

Hey Snowhawk, I think I'm with you on the 41's. There's no way my bike is lacking in torque right now and I'm really curious to see what it looks like on the dyno. Don't know if I'll have time before I leave tomorrow but it looks like I'll be back for another job in a couple weeks so maybe then.

Gregor

LocuL · 12-04-2012, 01:44 PM

This is so good.

sakurama · 12-04-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocuL

This is so good.

back at you!

Gregor

Flanny · 12-04-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakurama

back at you!

Gregor

Awesome! Exactly how I feel about my bike with the velocity stacks.

Night and day difference!

3rd throttle wheelies are easily possible with the help of just the slightest rise in the road!!!

Choke would be the bomb!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

12-02-2012, 07:08 AM	#616
Blackbert Factory Rambler Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Belgium, wrong side of the river Oddometer: 1,027	2 gallons. That 's like 7.6 liters, right. Or a little over a 100 km extra range. I followed this thread for the skills and knowledge you guys display. Now there's another reason to keep up. __________________ Honestly, have you ever heard of somebody looking back on his life thinking: "Oh, I should have travelled less and mowed the lawn more often"? (Pumpy) want to save on Smugmug? use this code (VoUO8M1ukmnMY)

12-03-2012, 07:45 AM	#618
sakurama ^OP on an endless build Joined: Oct 2004 Location: NYC & PDX Oddometer: 1,209	Yes, the top part of the tank by the filler can't be filled unless you were to lift the bike up so it's wasted space. This and the ability to make a very complex part in CAD is something that we can do a lot better. Chris and I will discuss this tonight. Difficulties will be trying to ensure that it works with all different exhausts, bags and years but I think it can be done. We'll probably do a lot of CNC tests in foam or with rapid prototyping before we move to the mold. Done smartly it should work well and smart design is what Chris is great at. Gregor __________________ www.gregorhalenda.com Previously on ADV: My endless rebuild: 950 Refresh or Mission Creep My ride reports: 5 Up on Two Bikes - Long way to the Trans Lab and City Blocks to Slick Rocks

12-04-2012, 06:58 AM	#623
sakurama ^OP on an endless build Joined: Oct 2004 Location: NYC & PDX Oddometer: 1,209	I didn't know that the Path trains to and from NJ stopped running after hurricane Sandy at 10pm - by the time I finish shooting at the studio and take the two trains and walk/ride the mile to the shop it's a solid hour so last week I went to the shop and worked until midnight as usual and then went to the station to find it closed. I actually called Chris to see if it was just the one station but no - no public transportation between NYC and Jersey City. My only option was to flag down a cab and pay $53 for one way ride through the 1.5 mile Holland tunnel. Yeah, that hurt. So last night the weather was warm(ish) and I figured I'd be really upset if I didn't manage at least one ride on my bike with the new kit. Besides, I needed to do an install to help Chris create a PDF of instructions and to test the final production parts. Luckily I did as we found several minor issues that he's now correcting. So 10pm came and went and getting the bike running was the only way I was going to be able to get back to the studio so I was committed. Here's the steps to install the kit. Chris has created a template that you can cut out and stick on the bracket to mark where to drill. Our first problem was it was off slightly so Kenny, your second set of carbs is now lighter! I drilled the two holes and we found it interfered with the bracket on the back so Chris remade the template and the second worked fine. Use a center punch to mark the center of the holes. Next use a center drill to do the initial drilling into the bar - center drills are lest apt to wander than a regular drill so this is a "best practice" and not a requirement. Another best practice is to put a drop of oil down before you drill - it saves the drill and makes the drilling go smoother and faster. Then switch to a 5.5mm regular drill bit, add more oil, and drill the holes. Next up install the TPS "axle" part - not sure what to call it yet. It's actually a bit of a puzzle and at first I couldn't get it in so this is a step by step. Angle it in under the accelerator pump bar. Then spin it in counter clockwise. Then the part should drop onto the throttle pulley. In this shot you can see the roll pin that holds the throttle pulley on - that is where the small conical set screws engage and locate. Now rotate the part clockwise until it aligns with the roll pin. This is a very small part so be careful to get this alignment. Chris is including a small tube of blue 242 Locktite with the kits and you use this on the small set screws. Tighten them evenly into the center of the roll pins. Then attach the TPS bracket to the drilled throttle bracket. Now you need to hook up and set the TPS. My bike is different than most it seems as on mine it's the yellow and black wires but check your manual and see which are the correct wires to use. My technique is to push the probes of the volt meter past the rubber seals and make contact with the metal. I use a multimeter but any volt meter that can measure volts DC will work. With the TPS pickup in the bracket and the ignition turned on rotate the unit until you get a reading of between .5 and .6 volts with the throttle closed. Doing the install was invaluable as we discovered that this brackets holes were ever so slightly off so Chris is going to make the adjustment for the production version. I found it easier to install the velocity stacks before mounting the carbs but after all the above. Also, if you're using the "feel and look" method of syncing the slides you'll want to do that before you put the stacks on as it will be more difficult to get your hand on the slide. I did a quick sync using that method (which is basically touching one slide and watching the other and rotating the throttle to get them to both move at the same time - it's surprisingly accurate). Then is was bolt on the tanks and button her up. Or, if you're like me, it's bolt on the tanks and button her up and then realize that you didn't change your main jet and take it all apart again and change your main jet. Kenny had a 160 in the 41's and my best run with my 39's was with a 168 but I didn't have a 170 so I went with the 168's. The last step is to put the seat on and here's where I discovered the last problem: even though we lowered the stacks and filters as much as possible they still interfere with the seat very slightly. I was able to squeeze my seat on top of the filters but it wasn't a good solution. I didn't take a photo but I will later but in the end I pulled the seat and there was a mark from the filters contact (an advantage of having dirt on your bike) and I cut out a small crescent of the plastic seat pan to reveal the foam which has the give needed. Once that was done the seat mounted snugly. And then I rolled her into the freight elevator, down to the loading dock and out onto the street for my first ride. Holy hell. This can't be an honest comparison because I'm using Kenny's 41's with untested jetting so it's not a back to back. But the difference between what I rode a month ago with the standard FCR set up and this is not even in the same ball park. My disappointment in the initial ride was a lack of grunt - the bike felt fast but not really wildly different from what my old bike felt like. I'd done an FCR conversion on my old Duke single and it was a huge increase in torque and wheelies. This wasn't. Last night after the bike warmed to a steady idle I got on and took off and just for fun gave it some goose. The front came up so fast I almost flipped and I was into the limiter. I shifted to second and was amazed that it wheelied in second like it used to in first - any throttle, any rpm, twist it and the front climbs instantly. Second is the new First. It was so fun I'm amazed I didn't get a ticket as I wheelied that bike away from every single stop light all the way home. It feels like it could wheelie off the throttle in third but it doesn't quite and there's a hesitation when you whack it in third that might be related to the accelerator pumps as Kenny has some aftermarket pumps on his bike. I think if this is worked on it might just lift in third on the throttle only. It will lift with the clutch. But to me it was night and day. The torque was far greater than Gino's 990R on the bottom - it was stump pulling, arm yanking torque that just put a smile on my face the whole way home. This was what I imagined when I bought the FCR's. It was a royal bitch to start the bike, which Chris witnessed, so we know that the chokes have to be done to make the whole thing an everyday livable affair but that's in process. But right now I would gladly live without chokes to be able to twist that throttle and feel the bike jump forward like a freight train. Coming over the Manhattan bridge I went through the gears and saw 110mph before I knew what was happening. The bike is really transformed into a hooligan machine. I'm going to have to be really careful as this could be very bad for my license. One thing for sure though is that there's no shortage of torque with the 41's. It feels linear and amazing. Kenny, want to sell this set? I will want to run the bike on a dyno and compare the curves to the 39's but I will either sell my 39's or bore them out. It was a long time coming but it was worth the wait. Sometimes mission creep has some huge benefits! Gregor __________________ www.gregorhalenda.com Previously on ADV: My endless rebuild: 950 Refresh or Mission Creep My ride reports: 5 Up on Two Bikes - Long way to the Trans Lab and City Blocks to Slick Rocks sakurama screwed with this post 12-09-2012 at 12:37 PM

12-04-2012, 08:27 AM	#624
Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid Joined: Jun 2007 Location: Charlotte School of Law Library..... Oddometer: 1,532	Happy you finally got this done! __________________ Those who dance are considered crazy by those who do not hear the music. I am not the same having seen the moon shine on the other side of the world. - Radmacher 5 Cylinders vs. Moab..........My East Tennessee

12-04-2012, 11:43 AM	#626
snowhawk jockey Slack Jaw Gaper Joined: Jul 2005 Location: The other Center of the Universe: Bend, Oregon Oddometer: 744	41's...41's...41's...41's!!! Them kids thinkin' they's give sumthin' up with the 41's aint feel'ed 'em pull at the sockets... Third gear, roll on wheelie's are possible. They are more power wheelie style and hover a few inches off the ground, usually just long enough to get noticed. __________________ KTM 950 SliderMoto with 19/17 spokes, FCR41's, 2-into-1 high pipe, single side front brake and handcut flattrack style tires. Gettin Slideways is good! justin@giantloopmoto.com www.giantloopmoto.com

12-04-2012, 10:56 AM	#625
TTRider Adventurer Joined: Aug 2008 Oddometer: 55	Dear Gregor, thank you and all the contributors soooooo much for doing this incredible stuff ! I really think theres is the same spirit that drives people like michelangelo painting the chapel or people trying and trying to find the right carbon ligament for the light bulb. I mean anything you will ever buy finished will be second to something you work yourself on. Everytime i work on my bike (in a much more simple way than you do) i learn a little more and my relationship to the bike is getting better. Thank you for taking us along this fantastic trip to the perfect 950-990 KTM carb.Version by GregorHalenda !!!

12-04-2012, 12:43 PM	#627
sakurama ^OP on an endless build Joined: Oct 2004 Location: NYC & PDX Oddometer: 1,209	Thanks TT! I realize I'm lucky to have the support of some really talented friends. It's beyond satisfying to be able to solve a problem and make a difference in almost any capacity but when I can do it on my bike, which to me is my passion, it's even more satisfying. I started all this because I wanted to make my 950 something special and I think I'm really getting somewhere with it. I have a few more things I'm talking with Chris about - things I'm not ready to discuss - and I think they would take the bike to the next level. Of course they would also be the cost of another bike... Hey Snowhawk, I think I'm with you on the 41's. There's no way my bike is lacking in torque right now and I'm really curious to see what it looks like on the dyno. Don't know if I'll have time before I leave tomorrow but it looks like I'll be back for another job in a couple weeks so maybe then. Gregor __________________ www.gregorhalenda.com Previously on ADV: My endless rebuild: 950 Refresh or Mission Creep My ride reports: 5 Up on Two Bikes - Long way to the Trans Lab and City Blocks to Slick Rocks

12-04-2012, 01:44 PM	#628
LocuL Gnarly Infantry Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Denmark - Jutland Oddometer: 882	This is so good. __________________ KTM 950(1190) Adv-s, Soon to be Project 1190 KTM 530 EXC-R 08

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