ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Hacks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-20-2009, 09:24 PM   #136
Andy-Gadget
Any bike can go anywere
 
Andy-Gadget's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
Oddometer: 1,316
The only fix in the type of case you describe is to make the chair heavier.

This is the situation where you get clever with just where the weight is added.
Two bags of cement powder on the chair seat will work, but one bag behind the chair wheel will work better, This is something drummed into us in Marine stability, it isn't the weight alone that is important, it is the distance of effort that matters from centre of boyancy that makes it all work.
This is the classic lever thing, the longer the lever arm, the less effort needed.
Better to be humping around one bag of cement powder, than two, unless you like cement powder of coarse, and it leaves the seat free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grafikfeat
I understand that...
I meant all that calculation works in a perfect world/set up.
Although... It does establish a good baseline.

There are too many variables. IE a Road King w/ a plastic velorex.
That's just plain dangerous.
__________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him.
An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest"
Benjamin Franklin.
'95 Sport 1100 Guzzi,'84 Cali 2 Guzzi, '95 Guzzi mille, '84 R65LS, '84 R100, '82 R100RS, '05 DL650, '72 Bultaco Sherpa T 350, '78 Montessa 348, "00 XR650R
Andy-Gadget is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2009, 11:28 AM   #137
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,405
Adding weight (ballast) to a sidecar can make a difference as can mounting the sidecar farther away from the bike. The 'variable' here, in some cases, can be related to whether the sidecar frame,wheel, spindle, mounts and suspension are up to the task of carry the additional loads. There are limits. To load down a very small or light sidecar in an attampt to make it work on a very large bike can be inviting troubles in other areas. Ballast may add stability in turns into the sidecar but it can also impose a ton of stress onto other things in turns away from the sidecar. We have modified a few smaller sidecars to allow them to work well on larger bikes but the return of the effort and /or expense to do this can be questionable in many cases.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2009, 06:30 PM   #138
Two Wheel Tractor
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Oddometer: 17
pdf please

Hi,
If you could send me the PDF of the shetch I would apprieate it.
Thanks,
TT
Two Wheel Tractor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2009, 08:58 AM   #139
Center-stand
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 385
I "think" this Citeroen suspension

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=468196&page=8

is what spawned the research and developement of the Bose electromagnectic motor suspension. The way I understand it, Dr. Bose had a Citereon, loved the car but hated the way it handled.

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...components.jsp

There are some real cool video's of the Bose suspension if you care to look for them.

I have found this thread interesting, though sometimes too complicated for my brain. I am reading trying to determine if I really want to hack one of my bikes. For a novice this thread doesn't exactly paint the rideability of a hack in the best light.
Center-stand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 10:40 PM   #140
Stromrider 1583
Republican Adventurer
 
Stromrider 1583's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: West Coast North America
Oddometer: 2,339
Wow ...

Lots of interesting information here.

Glad to see that the location of an outfit's roll centre (assuming solo + sidecar geometry) is agreed to be at ground level. :)

Turning into the chair and lifting the inside wheel is simple geometry. The relationship between the height of the CG and the lateral offset of the CG gives you a cornering rate limit in "G's". If the limit of traction in "G's" is lower than the G force required to lift the inside wheel, the outfit will slide before it rolls.

i.e. if the CG is 1 foot above the ground and offset 1 foot to the inside of front and rear tyres, it will take 1 G of lateral acceleration to lift the chair.

The subjects of sidecar wheel lead and steering geometry when limited to solo type suspensions (single plane) are very interesting. If you want to be able to corner at the same speed into and away from the chair, you have to look at the forces each wheel generates. The cornering force from the front wheel can be taken as a constant turning either way. It follows that in a maximum turn into the chair the inside tyre is adding near zero lateral force (since the weight has transfered to the outside tyres). In a maximum turn away from the chair the rear wheel is unloaded and the chair wheel does all the work.

With the contribution of the front tyre a constant, if follows that the rear and sidecar tyres have equal contact patches and to set the sidecar wheel lead such that the dynamic load is equal whilst turning.

If the CG is perhaps 55% of the front/rear wheelbase ... the CG should be 55% of the front/sidecar wheelbase to load the tyres equally on both turns.

The last outfit I built (in the late 70's) had 4" track centre offset front/rear (rear wheel contact centre 4" outboard) and equal "wheelbase" between the front tyre contact and both rear and sidecar contact. The idea being that the dynamic wheelbase was equal on right and left turns.

One trim setting that is largely ignored is chair wheel "camber". Lean-out is a camber adjustment to balance the drag of the chair. Chair wheel camber can help too. Chair wheel lean-in can reduce toe-in and lean-out requirements. With lean-out, the camber hurts turns into the chair, you would like to have lean-in. With chair wheel lean-in the driving and steering wheels are more upright for turns into the chair the lean-in is "good" camber for turns away from the chair.

I'm reading this thread with great interest as a street kneeler is not on the option list and I want to learn about tall outfits with skinny tyres and small HP. My R75/5 and Bingham outfit was NOT fun to ride. I'm hoping a Ural will be. If I can get a test ride to see if I "fit" the bike, the V-Strom is going ... a Ural in Mexico sounds like just the right choice.

Randy
(I was the passenger in this shot, taken in the esses at Riverside)
Attached Images
 
__________________
Election day 2012 I get ignored by the Libertarian Party! Woot!
Quote:
Welcome to the beginning of my "ignore" list. Good day.

PhilB
Stromrider 1583 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 02:18 PM   #141
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,405
Stromrider wrote:
>>one trim setting that is largely ignored is chair wheel "camber". Lean-out is a camber adjustment to balance the drag of the chair. Chair wheel camber can help too. Chair wheel lean-in can reduce toe-in and lean-out requirements. With lean-out, the camber hurts turns into the chair, you would like to have lean-in. With chair wheel lean-in the driving and steering wheels are more upright for turns into the chair the lean-in is "good" camber for turns away from the chair.<<

You are right this is rarely discussed and I don't underdtand why. Redmenace and myself have mentioned it a few times but really had no responses from others.
If anything lean in of the sidecar wheel can be beneficial IMHO.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 02:47 PM   #142
Doorguy1979
Dreamridin'
 
Doorguy1979's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: West Lafayette, Indiana, USA
Oddometer: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
And the railroad engineer covers the most ground



I get told by engineers all the time why something won't work, then I have to explain to them why it works better than the crap they sent us, we started to think this way:


How many engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?






5, 1 to hold the bulb, and 4 to spin the ladder.
__________________
The older I get the more I realize how few people I actually need in my life.

08 KLR 650
82 Suzuki GS850
7? Sachs Moped Basket Case
Doorguy1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 03:35 PM   #143
sprale
Tu ne cede malis...
 
sprale's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Republic of Texas
Oddometer: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand
I "think" this Citeroen suspension

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=468196&page=8

is what spawned the research and developement of the Bose electromagnectic motor suspension. The way I understand it, Dr. Bose had a Citereon, loved the car but hated the way it handled.

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...components.jsp

There are some real cool video's of the Bose suspension if you care to look for them.

I have found this thread interesting, though sometimes too complicated for my brain. I am reading trying to determine if I really want to hack one of my bikes. For a novice this thread doesn't exactly paint the rideability of a hack in the best light.
My favorite part is how to change a tire.



__________________
Dead Thread Necromancer!
K5 V-Strom DL1000: Big Black Vee
sprale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 07:19 AM   #144
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,405
Sidecar construction materials..some food for thought

I posted the following with another thread and was requested by Redmenace to post it here for basic reference:

Sidecar frame materials.

Round D.O.M. Tubing is what we typically use.
If you stick with .120 wall material it makes the fabrication of pinch block areas simplier and provides plenty opf strength. In other words say your main frame was 1 3/4" x .120. This means a piece of 1 1/4" will slide inside of it tight enough to create a pinch area for mounts etc. This goes right on down the line as 1" will slip into 1 1/4 and 3/4 inside of 1" etc. You get the idea.
Your main frame can be 1 1/2" material. We usually use 1 3/4" as it provides more surface area for the internal clamping of the lower mounts.
Of course you can go with Moly and use lighter wall stuff by doing so and save a few pounds but to me it isn't worth the weight savings compared to what it costs in most cases.
You can also use square stock which is easier to work with in some ways but is not as convenient to rig lower mounts to. It also does not have the strength in all directions as round tubing does. This is a viable option though and many use it. It will save some money on material.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 10:12 AM   #145
Stromrider 1583
Republican Adventurer
 
Stromrider 1583's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: West Coast North America
Oddometer: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
Stromrider wrote:
>>one trim setting that is largely ignored is chair wheel "camber". Lean-out is a camber adjustment to balance the drag of the chair. Chair wheel camber can help too. Chair wheel lean-in can reduce toe-in and lean-out requirements. With lean-out, the camber hurts turns into the chair, you would like to have lean-in. With chair wheel lean-in the driving and steering wheels are more upright for turns into the chair the lean-in is "good" camber for turns away from the chair.<<

You are right this is rarely discussed and I don't underdtand why. Redmenace and myself have mentioned it a few times but really had no responses from others.
If anything lean in of the sidecar wheel can be beneficial IMHO.
"Lean-Out" is camber thrust used to adjust tracking
"Toe-In" is slip angle thrust used to adjust tracking

It makes sense to use sidecar wheel "Lean-In" also.

When cornering with the chair on the outside, a vertical side car wheel will put most of the load on the outside edge of the tire (reducing the contact area). If the chair wheel has "negative camber" the loads increase the contact area rather than reducing it. For road racing rigs with wide tires negative camber lets the tire produce more cornering force.

When cornering with the chair on the inside, "lean-out" creates camber in the wrong direction, reducing the need for lean-out by using camber thrust from the sidecar instead helps corning in both directions.

I have NO experience with skinny tired dual sport rigs, but the principle should be the same. I know it works with wide tire RR rigs.

R
__________________
Election day 2012 I get ignored by the Libertarian Party! Woot!
Quote:
Welcome to the beginning of my "ignore" list. Good day.

PhilB
Stromrider 1583 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010, 07:38 AM   #146
BMWzenrider
The Road Scholar
 
BMWzenrider's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2003
Location: CheeseHead Land...
Oddometer: 1,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromrider 1583
"Lean-Out" is camber thrust used to adjust tracking
"Toe-In" is slip angle thrust used to adjust tracking

It makes sense to use sidecar wheel "Lean-In" also.
The various tracking control schemes that act on the upper mounting point of the sidecar shock* actually do alter sidecar wheel lean-in as well as the total vehicle attitude and bike lean-out.
Which is a GOOD thing, as it increases the effectiveness of the devices, and reduces the amount of total leanout needed.

As the controler is levered up for more lean-out, there is also more sidecar wheel lean-in being dialed in at the same time, due to the parallelogram type motion that is occuring to lean the bike over.

I have noted increased sidecar tire wear on the inner edge when running two-up and packed for camping versus running solo (even when running hard solo). Because I have my Hannigan's ECC cranked up when heavy, so I am running more on the inside edge of the sidecar tire due to the increased lean-in.

{Yes, I had to replace my automotive sidecar tire after only 15,000 FUN miles... Doesn't everyone??? }

-----
* - Hannigan ECC, Claude's manual lean adjusters, Champion TILT, Dauntless TILT copy, etc...
__________________
Karl Kugler
www.theroadscholar.net
2005 BMW R1200RT w/Hannigan-LT sidecar
2002 BMW R1150RA
In Memoriam: Harley, 1993-2010 You will be missed.
BMWzenrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010, 10:25 AM   #147
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,405
The error we see newbies make when trying to adjust tracking is to try and do so by adding more and more toe in. For all practical discussion on most typical 'skinny tire' outits about all they are doing is increasing tire wear.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2010, 11:37 AM   #148
larryboy
Paint it black.
 
larryboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Über Alles,Ca
Oddometer: 13,656
I've read thru this thread about 6 times now, good stuff.


Somebody mentioned that running car tires reduces or eliminates the need for bike lean out. How true is that? It seems like you'd still need some to deal with road crown?

Also, is there an ideal weight bias per wheel? I'm mostly curious about how to set up a rig with the engine on/as the sidecar.
__________________
Be sure the safest rule is that we should not dare to live in any scene in which we dare not die. ~Lewis Carroll~
larryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2010, 10:56 AM   #149
larryboy
Paint it black.
 
larryboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Über Alles,Ca
Oddometer: 13,656
What about running a zero trail rig? Is there a theoretical optimal trail we should be shooting for?

I think I'm going to set up the sidecar wheel to be relocated 4 inches front and back as I'm really not sure how 600 pounds of engine will affect things.

I'd really like to make the bike/sidecar frame all one piece, but I just know I'll have to cut the whole thing apart to tune the thing.

This must be a winter doldrums type of thread.

I might send a few PM's to the smart guys when the build starts.

TIA

__________________
Be sure the safest rule is that we should not dare to live in any scene in which we dare not die. ~Lewis Carroll~
larryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 09:27 AM   #150
AceRph
Affluenza Free!
 
AceRph's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2003
Location: Where the stupidest people on earth run things
Oddometer: 24,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy
This must be a winter doldrums type of thread.


Everybody but you & me must be out riding.
__________________
Equal to all of you of roads and good luck! - krokodil al-kashi

“We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer.” —”Extreme Behavior in Aspen,” February 3, 2003

"The State sees the spectre looming ahead of terrorism and anarchy, and this increases the risk of its over-reaction and a reduction in our freedom." - Stanley Kubrick
AceRph is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014