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Old 05-30-2009, 10:25 AM   #46
koifarm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
Should I nuke the links?

Richard-NL
Those were interesting posts Richard, there is a huge wealth of information in them, they took a while to download even with high speed internet.
I'll keep them on my bookmark list, it's always interesting to read different approaches to the same problem and get another viewpoint on issues that concern us.
Good on ya for posting those and I would hope they get posted in stickys so they can be accessed more easily.
Thanks for posting those! Much appreciated!
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:35 AM   #47
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
First, thank you for responding with specifics!

Next, granted for the sake of argument, you are correct that the formula is smoke and mirrors and the solution to the formula will always come up 15%
a) is 15% lead a good number to start with?
b)how do you arrive at wheel lead for your builds(do you have a "favorite #"? What is it and why?)
c) how important to you think wheel lead is? Does it relate to wheelbase, track width and/or trail? In what combination or order of importance?

Finally, the new thread resulted from the manner of your response. It was more in the nature of a personal attack and it lacked substance relating to the theory you were calling in question. A your more recent response, which was much more to the point, might more properly belong in the original thread. No need for a pissing match, when a reasoned rebuttal or debunking will retain a larger audience and provide more valuable insights, eh?

I look forward to learning more about your own approach towards sidecar design and construction.
Vernon,
Do the 15% and see what you get with the rigs you have worked on. The posted srticle by Peter Smith regardless of the engineering dialogue in it did have some very good points. As I stated earlier, the pictures themselves were good if we look closely at them.

As far as any magic formula for wheel lead etc goes I may be wrong but do not feel there can be such a thing in all cases.

How much lead is 'right' depends upon the type of rig, it's intended usage and who may be operating it as much as the other factors they may be invloved. A good 'for instance' was the video of Roger S. doing a 180 LEFT hand spin around at 30mph on his goldthing/moturist rig that was on his site. That rig had 15" of lead (or so I was told) and the bike was a heavy bike. Try that same spin on a GS/ Ural rig with no swaybar , 10 " of lead etc and more than likely you will end up on your head.

Heavy bikes with light sidecars or even well sprung lighter sidecars can tolerate less lead than a light bike as the rear does not tend to lift as easy.

Light bikes with a heavy sidecar will need more lead to run hard safely.

If a rig is tipsy in left handers (turns away from the sidecar) it may need more lead.
Rigs with swaybars can run with less lead usually.
Less lead makes steering easier.
More lead adds stability in left turns.

Compromises are a given. How much compromose is right for a given rig doesn't come from a formula even though a formula may give some good reference on which way to go.

Oh, and as soon as someone finds a new trick by the seat of their pants based on experience then we can probably come up with a new formula to state why it worked.

So much for magic.
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Old 05-30-2009, 11:08 AM   #48
RedMenace
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Hi Claude!
Well it sounds like I may just stick with my "8-12" and see how it works method.
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Old 05-30-2009, 11:19 AM   #49
koifarm
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Leading statement!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
Hi Claude!
Well it sounds like I may just stick with my "8-12" and see how it works method.
Having just mounted the Spirit sidecar to the 07 Bonneville I can agree with that reference point to start with. My lead is a tad over 9 inches, something like 9 1/4 or so, at this point it seems to be ideal and works quite well all the way round. Oregon Thrux mounted his with a 9" lead and that's functioning well for him. I did see an older BSA with the same car mounted at 14 inches and the owner stated it worked just fine for him. So, it appears that staying within those parameters is a good bet on the git go, it at least provides a frame of reference to further adjustments......once I get some miles on and can note tire wear (or not) to see if any further changes are needed.
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:26 AM   #50
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The Gospel according to Phil.

No!! Not me!! Philip E Irving M.B.E. Chief Engineer, The Vincent H.R.D. Co. Ltd.

I try to base my designs on a sound engineering footing, as far as possible. The research I've done over the last thirty years into sidecar design has led me to believe that what works is fairly universal, and of a very general nature.

Mr Irving is a particular hero of mine, and most Aussies. He was at the leading edge of mototcycle design for many years, as you would probably know. One of my most read books is Motorcycle Technicalities, authored by him. It is a collection of articles published in Motorcycling, the London Weekly magazine.
Two articles are of particular relevance here. The first," Problems of Sidecar Steering", states...

"Getting the sidecar wheel well forward of the back axle centre, considerably increases right hand stability (left mounted chair) by bringing the widest part of the track up towards the centre of gravity. If, however, the sidecar wheel is brought too far forward, particulary on a short wheelbase machine, a secondary adverse effect is introduced, in that the front wheel is rather inclined to leave the ground when accelerating out of a right hand bend, and front wheel skids come somewhat easily at such times."
No mention of the steering being heavier in proportion to s/car wheel lead, in fact too much can cause front end levitation!!!

The second," Are you a Sidecar Expert?", states...
"It is usual to set this (the s/c wheel) so that it has a "toe-in" of about three quarters of an inch, measured on the length of the machine....the machine is leaned out of the vertical about an inch or so at the saddle....and by trial and error it is possible to adjust this "lean-out" so that the outfit will steer "hands off" on a level surface."
"The amounts quoted for "lean-out" and "toe-in"are only given as a guide, as they vary for every outfit acording to size and loading, and it is well worth while conducting some experements to ascertain the correct figures and subsequently to check them at regular intervals."
"Sidecar machines need steeper head angles and less trail than solos for ease of steering, but of the two, trail is more important......(unless the trail is reduced), steering will be heavy and the outfit will also have a marked tendancy to drift down the camber of the road."

Both these articles are well worth a read in full, and are just as relevant now, SEVENTY odd years after they were written.
For you Red Menace....I've found that much under 75% of wheelbase as a track figure is a bit narrow on the street, and I can use up to 20% of wheelbase as a lead figure,(even without reduced trail Leading Links), but these are not that critical, plus or minus five percent, if you have to.
How many times should I say "sorry it wasn't meant as a personal attack on anyone?" I just can't help being an agro old man
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:43 AM   #51
Nemo DeNovo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phyllis
How many times should I say "sorry it wasn't meant as a personal attack on anyone?" I just can't help being an agro old man
Well said. Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding. You don't happen to have copies of those 2 articles you could post in the Sticky thread, do you? Although my Dnepr hack is factory mounted, it would be nice to have some good info on making the proper adjustments when I put the rig back together.

Thanks
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:10 AM   #52
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Lean out question.

Lean out.

Only here I read a lot about it. Most (actually allmost all modern sidecar outfits) don’t have any lean out of the bike for over ...ty years, because they all use (wide) car tires. Not only the outfits with hub-steering, but also those with a leading link.

Any opinions to that.

I’m well aware, that everything (here) is written only as a basic guideline and is not supposed to be a “law”.

Richard-NL


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Old 05-31-2009, 06:25 AM   #53
Nemo DeNovo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
Lean out.

Only here I read a lot about it. Most (actually allmost all modern sidecar outfits) don’t have any lean out of the bike for over ...ty years, because they all use (wide) car tires. Not only the outfits with hub-steering, but also those with a leading link.

Any opinions to that.

I’m well aware, that everything (here) is written only as a basic guideline and is not supposed to be a “law”.

Richard-NL

My Dnepr operator's manual says zero degrees leanout and zero degrees toe-in. Won't know what works 'til it's back together.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:17 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo DeNovo
My Dnepr operator's manual says zero degrees leanout and zero degrees toe-in. Won't know what works 'til it's back together.
Correct. You have a Dnepr MT 16, haven’t you? MT 16 means full-time two-wheel drive, doesn’t it? That’s why, I think.

Here some zipped .pdf files for your bike. Only open the links, if you really want them. It’s in german, however. It will take a while (in fact it will take ages) to download them.

MANUAL


PARTS

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Old 05-31-2009, 07:58 AM   #55
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Thanks for the links, only took me about 3 minutes to d/l both of them, and I'm on a medium speed (satellite) connection. The exploded views have parts lists in Russian, English, French, German and Spanish.

I think you're right about the zero leanout and toe-in being due to the 2 wheel drive. Everything I've read indicates that 2 wheel drive makes the sidecar setup completely different, especially wheel lead. My rig only has about 9 inches of wheel lead, and this is due to the offset of the gears for the sidecar driveshaft. My mounts are not adjustable for wheel lead, the lower front mounts on bike and car are both stationary. The rear mount on the hack frame is adjustable for toe-in and fore & aft leveling.
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:35 AM   #56
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Thanks Phil. I'll become more of an expert as you guys with the knowledge share what you know.
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:42 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceRph
Thanks Phil. I'll become more of an expert as you guys with the knowledge share what you know.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Phyllis, had a coffee with him and can say that he lives and breathes sidecars both building and riding.. So much so, I have trusted him to build one for me.. He`s knowledge is second to none and will be a real asset to our forum..
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:05 AM   #58
RedMenace
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Thumb More thoughts on wheel lead

Thanks, Phyliis! That is what I was looking for! Particularly the references to Mr.Irving's work!

A thought regarding wheel lead: Just because Mr.Irving didn't mention it, doesn't mean wheel lead does not affect steering effort.

You can illustrate this by drawing the arc the wheels will describe, using different amounts of wheel lead. You will see that the more lead you have, the more difference there is between the arc described by the sidecar wheel and those of the bike. With zero sidecar wheel lead the rear wheel and the sidecar wheel lie upon the same radius, and the arc is identical. As you move the sidecar wheel forward they no longer do so and to swing along the same arc through a corner one or both of the tires must be dragged sideways or scrubbed through the corner, increasing steering effort( and tire wear as well as fuel consumption).

On a wide rig with excessive lead, such as my Suzuki Bandit, you can really feel this when pushing the rig around a parking lot. Turning the front wheel when backing the rig out of my garage is like putting on the brakes! You can see black tire marks on the concrete where the sidecar tire is dragged across the concrete through the turn! It takes a lot of muscle to keep the wheel cranked over. The effort at the handlebars and the force required to roll the bike around eases and the skid marks lighten and disappear as I straighten out the handlebars.

The rigs I own with less lead are easier to perform this manuever with.

As far as the "...secondary adverse effect is introduced, in that the front wheel is rather inclined to leave the ground when accelerating out of a right hand bend, and front wheel skids come somewhat easily at such times...", I think you may have misunderstood the mechanism at work here. When turning away from the sidecar(Left turns for me ;-), the sidecar wheel becomes a fulcrum. The further forward the sidecar wheel is, the more leverage is provided the tip over moment. Somewaht analogous to what happens when you enter a corner on a solo bike having left the sidestand down, this levers the front wheel off the ground, reducing traction and causing the front wheel to wash out. Acceleration does provide some "levitation" torquing the front of the bike up, but I think the increased tendency to skid the front wheel turning away from the sidecar compared to turning towards the sidecar is caused by levering the bike over the sidecar wheel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by phyllis
No!! Not me!! Philip E Irving M.B.E. Chief Engineer, The Vincent H.R.D. Co. Ltd.

I try to base my designs on a sound engineering footing, as far as possible. The research I've done over the last thirty years into sidecar design has led me to believe that what works is fairly universal, and of a very general nature.

Mr Irving is a particular hero of mine, and most Aussies. He was at the leading edge of mototcycle design for many years, as you would probably know. One of my most read books is Motorcycle Technicalities, authored by him. It is a collection of articles published in Motorcycling, the London Weekly magazine.
Two articles are of particular relevance here. The first," Problems of Sidecar Steering", states...

"Getting the sidecar wheel well forward of the back axle centre, considerably increases right hand stability (left mounted chair) by bringing the widest part of the track up towards the centre of gravity. If, however, the sidecar wheel is brought too far forward, particulary on a short wheelbase machine, a secondary adverse effect is introduced, in that the front wheel is rather inclined to leave the ground when accelerating out of a right hand bend, and front wheel skids come somewhat easily at such times."
No mention of the steering being heavier in proportion to s/car wheel lead, in fact too much can cause front end levitation!!!

The second," Are you a Sidecar Expert?", states...
"It is usual to set this (the s/c wheel) so that it has a "toe-in" of about three quarters of an inch, measured on the length of the machine....the machine is leaned out of the vertical about an inch or so at the saddle....and by trial and error it is possible to adjust this "lean-out" so that the outfit will steer "hands off" on a level surface."
"The amounts quoted for "lean-out" and "toe-in"are only given as a guide, as they vary for every outfit acording to size and loading, and it is well worth while conducting some experements to ascertain the correct figures and subsequently to check them at regular intervals."
"Sidecar machines need steeper head angles and less trail than solos for ease of steering, but of the two, trail is more important......(unless the trail is reduced), steering will be heavy and the outfit will also have a marked tendancy to drift down the camber of the road."

Both these articles are well worth a read in full, and are just as relevant now, SEVENTY odd years after they were written.
For you Red Menace....I've found that much under 75% of wheelbase as a track figure is a bit narrow on the street, and I can use up to 20% of wheelbase as a lead figure,(even without reduced trail Leading Links), but these are not that critical, plus or minus five percent, if you have to.
How many times should I say "sorry it wasn't meant as a personal attack on anyone?" I just can't help being an agro old man
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:20 PM   #59
claude
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I have posted this type of thing before but thought it may be worth saying here. Open for comments of course.

REGARDING WHEEL LEAD:
Think of what some call 'tip over lines'.
There are three tip over lines on a sidecar outfit. We are drawing these lines between the contact patches of each tire.These are the lines that the outfit woudl tend to tip over at when pushed too hard.

1) One tip over line is between the front and rear bike tires. Turn into the sidecar and the sidecar comes up.

2) One tip over line is between the bike front tire and the sidecar tire.Turn away from sidecar and rear wheel unloads. Bad case the nose of the sidecar hits the ground. Worst case is the rear of the bike goes over the sidecar.

3) One tip over line is between the bike rear and the sidecar tire.Go up a steep hill and front tire comes up. Tip over line is between rear of bike and sidecar wheel.

Wheel lead?
Picture and automobile with only three wheels on it. Yeah this is dumb but hopefully makes sense.
Lets say the side with only one wheel had the wheel all the way to the rear inline with the other rear wheel. This would be like zero lead on a sidecar outfit. The car would steer easily. It could turn towards the one wheel side okay but if you turned it towards the two wheel side the front of the car with no wheel woudl hit the ground easily. Yes it woudl probably not even sit still without the non wheel corner dropping down but you get the idea.

Now lets say the side with only one wheel had the wheel all the way forward and even with the other front wheel. You could turn away from the single wheel side and have stability but it woudl be hard to steer as only one front wheel woudl be steering. This would relate to a ton of lead on a sidecar rig.
Some where between totally front and totally rear woudl be the best compromise for placing the single wheel.

Where would that be? It would depend upon the weigth distribution of the car. A rear engine car woudl be different than a front engine car etc etc.
More wheel lead increases stability in turns away from the sidecar but makes steering effort harder. It also makes understeer, front end sliding, happen easier in turns away from the sidecar.

Less wheel lead decreases stability in turns away from the sidecar but makes steering effort easier. It allows the nose of the sidecar to dip and the rear of the bike to unload.

Some where between these two extremes is the best compromise for a given rig. Weight of sidecar, weigth of bike, the distribution of those weights at rest, types of supension, track width, tires. amount of trail, type of swingarm, swaybar or not and probably other things can come into play.

I'd just about bet ya that all who have screwed around a lot with this stuff will end up saying about the same thing after the dust settles even though it may be said in different ways.
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:44 PM   #60
Richard-NL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
On a wide rig with excessive lead, such as my Suzuki Bandit, you can really feel this when pushing the rig around a parking lot. Turning the front wheel when backing the rig out of my garage is like putting on the brakes! You can see black tire marks on the concrete where the sidecar tire is dragged across the concrete through the turn! It takes a lot of muscle to keep the wheel cranked over. The effort at the handlebars and the force required to roll the bike around eases and the skid marks lighten and disappear as I straighten out the handlebars.

The rigs I own with less lead are easier to perform this manuever with.
All your rigs have the original stock front telescope forks, haven't they. That also has an influence. None of the trail has been adapted. But you know that.

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