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Old 05-31-2009, 11:46 AM   #61
Richard-NL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
I'd just about bet ya that all who have screwed around a lot with this stuff will end up saying about the same thing after the dust settles even though it may be said in different ways.
You’re so right. I was writing an answer, with a lot of pics like the ones below (shortened it now to three) expressing that the idea (basic info) in the end, isn’t very different.







You just write better.

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Old 05-31-2009, 02:41 PM   #62
RedMenace
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Sure, and if I did modify the front end to reduce trail, steering effort could be reduced to compensate for or mask the effects of the of sc wheel lead scrubbing the tires, but unless I significantly change the dimensions that effect would still be present, no?

I intend to modify the front end of the Suzi, but minor crisis' keep popping up to prevent me from turning my attention there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard-NL
All your rigs have the original stock front telescope forks, haven't they. That also has an influence. None of the trail has been adapted. But you know that.

Richard-NL
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:47 PM   #63
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Cool2

The conversation here has turned reasonable and somewhat useful? I wonder if this thread should be returned to join the original thread?
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Old 05-31-2009, 03:02 PM   #64
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Old 05-31-2009, 04:57 PM   #65
koifarm
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The tide has turned

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
The conversation here has turned reasonable and somewhat useful? I wonder if this thread should be returned to join the original thread?
I have to agree with you Red, it has been most informative from all posters and is definitely a wonderful addition to the information base. Glad to see everyone has settled down and is coming forth with useful information.
Can the mods add this to the original thread?
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:27 AM   #66
McCardigan
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[quote=claude]

REGARDING WHEEL LEAD:
Think of what some call 'tip over lines'.
There are three tip over lines on a sidecar outfit.

2) One tip over line is between the bike front tire and the sidecar tire.Turn away from sidecar and rear wheel unloads. Bad case the nose of the sidecar hits the ground. Worst case is the rear of the bike goes over the sidecar.

I have the perfect example to illustrate this.

I have published these photo's some time ago, can't remember where and when.

Taken by Mick Fagan at the BMW Vic rally in the Grampians 1986. I was standing alongside Mick when he shot these remarkable photo's of my 1st outfit.

Background. The guy's are, Jim Judd (RIP) the pilot and builder of my outfit, and Frank Cachia and were competing in a gymkhana event that involved going as fast as they could in a figure 8 track.








Me thinks I could have done with a wee bit more lead

BTW, measured up the Tuck Truck tonight.

Sidecar wheel lead is 360mm (14"), wheel base is 1650mm (66''), wheel track is the same as a Toyota Land Crusier, 1495mm (60'').

Hard to lift the sidecar wheel, (also helped by the fact the sidecar body is bloody heavy) and heavy on steering at low speeds.

Eveb though it has a reasonably high ground clearance, 200mm (8'') at the front and 300mm(12'') at the rear, I can punt this pretty quickly on both tar and dirt, much to BMW Aust horror, when we rounded up the GS boys on a wet greasy track in Tassie

BTW if you are wondering, both the guy's and the outfit survived.


Rode back home to Melbourne about 250 kms no worries
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:53 AM   #67
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMenace
Sure, and if I did modify the front end to reduce trail, steering effort could be reduced to compensate for or mask the effects of the of sc wheel lead scrubbing the tires, but unless I significantly change the dimensions that effect would still be present, no?

I intend to modify the front end of the Suzi, but minor crisis' keep popping up to prevent me from turning my attention there...
Asimple test on any rig to see what scrubbing may take place is to turn the bars with the rig at rest on solid ground or pavement. When doing this look at see how much the sidecar wheel moves fore and aft. Then do the same deal on a rig with reduced trail and you will see much less movement.
Less lead, reduced trail and less track width will make the sidecar wheel scrub less when the bars are turns. The key is to balance out all the factors to arrive at a good compromise for handling and safety.
Vernon from reading your posts for a long time it seems you like light sidecars. That is fine of course but many also prefer heavier sidecars. I kinda prefer havier for the most part but like light sidecars also. The difference in riding technique is a reality as is the handling. The approach to making a rig work will vary some depending upon the rig but the basics and the effects of them will still be the same for the most part.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:56 AM   #68
Richard-NL
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A lot of lead and then.......?

The French Sidecar Factory “Side-Bike” uses 18 inch (45 cm) lead on their outfits but at the same time they have sidecarwheelsteering and central hub-steering in the front. The Zeus has 14 inch (37 cm), a lot less, but this one doesn’t only have twowheeldrive, but also rear-wheel-steering on this outfit with a 79 inch (200 cm) wheel base.

In 2001 EML from the Netherlands started a new project with their GT Twin for heavy bikes like the Honda GL1500 and 1800 and the BMW K1200LT. I think the following pics say enough, about what their ideas were at that time towards lead and heavy large outfits.





Drawings of the frame:



Pics of the frame:



It worked.



I’d rather not have the discussion whether this still is a sidecar-outfit. Thank you very much. Like the Zeus, it rides like one, but indeed it’s a little “different” and also not my cup of tea.




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Old 06-01-2009, 06:23 AM   #69
RedMenace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude
Asimple test on any rig to see what scrubbing may take place is to turn the bars with the rig at rest on solid ground or pavement. When doing this look at see how much the sidecar wheel moves fore and aft. Then do the same deal on a rig with reduced trail and you will see much less movement.
(snip)
Vernon from reading your posts for a long time it seems you like light sidecars. That is fine of course but many also prefer heavier sidecars. (snip) The difference in riding technique is a reality as is the handling. (snip)
You are correct, I do prefer light, simple sidecars. My Suzi rig is relatively heavy, however. It is extremely stable and, once I reduce the steering effort a bit, should be an excellent street rig. As it is, with stock telo front end, stubby handlebars and nearly 14" of wheel lead, it handles well but with enough steering effort to be quite tiring and difficult to push through a tight corner at speed.

Do I understand you to say that reducing trail alone will reduce tire scrub? Why would that be, I wonder? I understand how it would reduce the feeling at the handlebars, but the tires would still be fighting each other trying to turn a different arc through the corner, resulting in scrub or crabbing.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:07 AM   #70
phyllis
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Squire Four wheeler.

Looking back at some old Motorcycle Sport mags(the English ones) there is an article about the double wheeled sidecar Squire made and tested but never took to the marketplace. The small (10"?) wheels were mounted on each end of a short beam that was itself pivoted on a sprung trailing arm. The trailing edge of the forward wheel almost touched the leading edge of the rear wheel. The idea being to reduce the "wheel rate" (spring strength) of each individual wheel because they could ride the bumps independently. Soft over the bumps, but firm when loaded in a corner, less dive. Like the main landing gear bogey on Boeing 747s, (trucks too? sorry,Lorries?) Probably too many wheels to remain classified as an outfit. Sorry no scanner,, so no picture. Wonder how they measured the lead on that one??
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:10 AM   #71
claude
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Richard NL WROTE:
>>>The French Sidecar Factory “Side-Bike” uses 18 inch (45 cm) lead on their outfits but at the same time they have sidecarwheelsteering and central hub-steering in the front. The Zeus has 14 inch (37 cm), a lot less, but this one doesn’t only have twowheeldrive, but also rear-wheel-steering on this outfit with a 79 inch (200 cm) wheel base.<<<

Yes, a steering sidecar wheel such as on the Comanchee and others can allow a rig to gain the benefits of running more wheel lead without the drawbacks of doing so with a conventional design. But....things can become complex pretty quickly. There are also other drawbacks.
Still comes down to where one wants to meet the compromises confronted with and how important one feels it is to narrow the margins. Or in some cases maybe marketing plays a role in the mix too.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:12 AM   #72
claude
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And then there was Floyd 'POP' Dreyer who built a caster wheel for the sidecar that just kinda followed along. Bugger to roll backwqards though
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:34 AM   #73
phyllis
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J R Ewing

Did Hack'd magazine ever publish Mr Ewing's views on sidecar wheel lead?
I thought he was on the ball on most of the topics I have read of his.
I have copies of his "Tires tell the tale" and "Leanout". He must have had something to say about Lead.
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:20 PM   #74
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phyllis
Did Hack'd magazine ever publish Mr Ewing's views on sidecar wheel lead?
I thought he was on the ball on most of the topics I have read of his.
I have copies of his "Tires tell the tale" and "Leanout". He must have had something to say about Lead.

I just emailed Gary and Chris to ask them that. We were down at their place over memorial day and they are doing fine. Chris does have alot of back issues of Hack'd. They have talked for a long time of maybe putting J'R's writings into one book. Sure woudl be a good read as he did get into a lot of things when he was still with us. Quite a guy.
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:43 PM   #75
claude
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A little more reseach on the net and I found this:

These were in Hack'd Magazine:
................................................
Volume 11 # 2 Fall 1994
Wheel Lead Formula; Peter Smith shares his engineering technology in verse and drawings. (This is the one that was posted here)
.................................................. ........

Volume 13 # 2 Fall 1996
J. R.. Ewing explains sidecar wheel lead

.................................................. .......
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