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Old 10-24-2011, 07:37 PM   #976
maloryII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hay Ewe View Post
that makes me laugh, a 2.5liter 5 cylinder diesl is illegal but you guys in teh USA can have a 6.8 liter (or what ever) petrol V8, which is the most fuel efficient

Hay Ewe
Yep, it's pretty ridiculous. It's not necessarily the technology or motor itself that's illegal, but the simply the hoops manufacturers have to jump through in order to get different motor offerings blessed off.

It all started here, for the most part
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:13 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by maloryII View Post
Nah nothing to do with restomod or kit title issues.

If it was titled on the '84 chassis it's essentially a VIN swapped truck. You think you can march that little beauty into an inspection/emissions station and tell everyone it's a 1984? They took an '84 chassis and built a 2011 truck on top of it using the '84 VIN. The bureaucracy may be stupid but it ain't that stupid.

Some states don't have inspections and many counties are emissions testing free. But the TD5 isn't a legal motor in the USA. I'm not saying you can't get away with it...there's always the "off road use only" loophole. But hooo boy buyer beware before they shell out $80k or whatever for that truck.

There's a reason it's up in Canada for sale.

Which shop built it and in which state did they register it?

There's a thread over on D90.com about a guy out in CA in litigation right now for a similar kind of shenanigan.
sooo... what happens, if you have an all original 1984 defender 110 and the frame and bulkhead are too rusty to fix?
you are not allowed to buy and install new galvanized ones?
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:04 AM   #978
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Originally Posted by Doc.Snyder View Post
sooo... what happens, if you have an all original 1984 defender 110 and the frame and bulkhead are too rusty to fix?
you are not allowed to buy and install new galvanized ones?
Of course you're allowed to -- you're putting a 1984 truck on a re-conditioned and correct chassis.

You're not putting a 2011 Defender with a 2011 Euro-spec Td5 motor on a 1984 VIN and calling it a 1984 Defender -- which is what has apparently been done in this example. And "registered in the U.S." I'd love to see that title.

The onus is on the owner to keep the VINs in order. Anyone can throw VINs around. I could probably import and register, via Mexico, a dozen 2011 Defenders in Cochise County, AZ. I'd just use a dozen different titles from 25+ year old donor trucks. They all say Defender on the back, right? The DMV down here wouldn't give a shit or know the difference. But once I try to move those vehicles the jig will be up pretty quickly. At best the trucks get crushed by the feds. At worst I'm in pretty serious legal trouble.

This kind of stuff is a science in the hardcore Defender import crowd, and I ain't a professor.

But believe me, if it was easy and legal to just plop 2011 Defenders on a 25 year old VIN, 1993 NAS D110s woudn't be fetching $60-$100k.
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maloryII screwed with this post 10-25-2011 at 12:11 AM
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:10 AM   #979
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Originally Posted by maloryII View Post
Of course you're allowed to -- you're putting a 1984 truck on a re-conditioned and correct chassis.

You're not putting a 2011 Defender with a 2011 Euro-spec Td5 motor on a 1984 VIN and calling it a 1984 Defender.

This kind of stuff is a science in the hardcore Defender import crowd, and I ain't a professor.

But believe me, if it was easy and legal to just plop 2011 Defenders on a 25 year old VIN, 1993 NAS D110s woudn't be fetching $60-$100k.
I take your point about the principle of essentially swapping the VIN plates being illegal... but where do you draw the line? What happens if I just put a 300TDi engine in, along with replacing half the panels and a new interior?

I'm not trying to be contradictory, just trying to understand how far I can re-furb a Landy and still be able to legally import it.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:24 AM   #980
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I take your point about the principle of essentially swapping the VIN plates being illegal... but where do you draw the line? What happens if I just put a 300TDi engine in, along with replacing half the panels and a new interior?

I'm not trying to be contradictory, just trying to understand how far I can re-furb a Landy and still be able to legally import it.
For import details I'd refer you to Doug over at Diving Creek Imports in the U.S. or Julian over at Global Land Rovers in the UK. They're experts in this arena. My expertise doesn't go much beyond NAS D1 and DIIs.

200/300tdis are kosher in the U.S. in all LR models that'll take those motors. They were approved, at one point, for sale in the U.S IIRC in anticipation of the introduction of the Defender 90/110 to the NA market in 1993.

Replacing new parts, etc., isn't the issue -- it's when you build an entirely new truck on an old VIN. If you were allowed to do that, then people would just ship disassembled Defenders over and Americans would build from the parts on 25 y/o old VINs.

And they do exactly that pretty frequently, but it isn't legal
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:25 AM   #981
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Originally Posted by maloryII View Post
I could probably import and register, via Mexico, a dozen 2011 Defenders in Cochise County, AZ. I'd just use a dozen different titles from 25+ year old donor trucks. They all say Defender on the back, right?


Interesting. I was going to write that Land Rover wasn't importing Defenders into Mexico but I am glad that I double checked, because they are now listed on their web pages. I swear when I asked in Monterrey a few years ago I was told that you couldn't get a Defender there.

$57,500, and that's not peso$ either!

http://www.landrover.com.mx/lr/defender/
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:39 AM   #982
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Get in touch with Dale @ www.theroverbarn.com

tell 'im Fellix sent you
F(ell)ixed.
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Old 10-25-2011, 06:00 AM   #983
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Originally Posted by maloryII View Post

Replacing new parts, etc., isn't the issue -- it's when you build an entirely new truck on an old VIN. If you were allowed to do that, then people would just ship disassembled Defenders over and Americans would build from the parts on 25 y/o old VINs.

And they do exactly that pretty frequently, but it isn't legal

That may be a classic example of "it depends."

I remember that someone that rebuilt Ford Cobras got into trouble years ago because they supposedly had several vehicles in their garage where they had removed the VIN. However, in many circles, the accepted feeling is that if you have the original chassis piece with the original VIN then you can modify the rest of the chassis to your heart's content.

Of course, we are also potentially talking about two different things here: what will fly when the Feds inspect the vehicle at the port for importation into the USA, and what will fly when you rebuild a vehicle in the States. There the standards for inspection depend on the individual states (as a hint: in Florida they used to tell you that you needed a DMV officer or a State Trooper to do the inspection, but the law actually stated that a Notary Public could certify the inspection. So if you have a friend that was a notary ... )

It used to be pretty common for trucking companies to rebuild wrecked trucks using the pieces from two or more wrecks. That was perfectly acceptable as long as you used at least the forward part of the passenger side frame rail (at least with Kenworths because that's where the VIN was stamped, never mind that there were badges and paper stickers on other parts of a K100.

Dunno about Land Rover but once upon a time Porsche would completely rebuild a new car around an existing chassis for customers that lived in places like Nigeria where it was basically impossible to legally import a new auto. I remember seeing a comment in an article on Porsche's custom shop years ago that showed them converting a 1969 chassis into late 80's spec. complete with new engine, interior, etc.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:19 AM   #984
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I think it is all a bit different on Defenders.

The thing is, that 1984 and 2011 Trucks are still THE SAME VEHICLES.
That is also the reason, why the Defender is still sold without airbags in europe. The Homologation (?) is still valid from back then.

So it still uses the same chassis, axles, body/panels, etc.

Of course different engines and gearboxes were added, but essentially they are still the same vehicles.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:25 AM   #985
maloryII
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Originally Posted by Doc.Snyder View Post
I think it is all a bit different on Defenders.

The thing is, that 1984 and 2011 Trucks are still THE SAME VEHICLES.
That is also the reason, why the Defender is still sold without airbags in europe. The Homologation (?) is still valid from back then.

So it still uses the same chassis, axles, body/panels, etc.

Of course different engines and gearboxes were added, but essentially they are still the same vehicles.
Not according to US Customs
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:58 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by Doc.Snyder View Post
I think it is all a bit different on Defenders.

The thing is, that 1984 and 2011 Trucks are still THE SAME VEHICLES.
That is also the reason, why the Defender is still sold without airbags in europe. The Homologation (?) is still valid from back then.

So it still uses the same chassis, axles, body/panels, etc.

Of course different engines and gearboxes were added, but essentially they are still the same vehicles.
They aren't the same vehicles, althought many parts will fit from one to the other.

The chassis is different, the bulkhead is different, the rear tub is different, the front wings are different, the doors are different, the dash is different, the axles are different, even the bumpers are different.

In the UK pre-1972 vehicles are tax free and you see many defenders masquerading (just by changing the vin plate) as pre-72 vehicles to avoid paying road tax. completely illegal as I'm sure it is in Canada and the US, we aren't talking about modernising a vehicle here, but wholesale fraud.

As far as homologation goes 2011 defenders are homolgated as N1 commercial vehicles in the UK so don't need airbags etc.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:05 PM   #987
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Anyway back on topic, here's mine about six months ago, not much to lust after but will be soon:



Not wanting to perpetuate the myth of British cars being unreliable but I couldn't find a photo with the bonnet down!
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:16 PM   #988
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They aren't the same vehicles, althought many parts will fit from one to the other.

The chassis is different, the bulkhead is different, the rear tub is different, the front wings are different, the doors are different, the dash is different, the axles are different, even the bumpers are different.

In the UK pre-1972 vehicles are tax free and you see many defenders masquerading (just by changing the vin plate) as pre-72 vehicles to avoid paying road tax. completely illegal as I'm sure it is in Canada and the US, we aren't talking about modernising a vehicle here, but wholesale fraud.

As far as homologation goes 2011 defenders are homolgated as N1 commercial vehicles in the UK so don't need airbags etc.
The chassis (the coil sprung one) is largely the same. Minor mods have been made to accomodate new engines/transfer boxes/gearboxes.
Same goes for the Bulkhead; only minor changes.
All the stuff is interchangeable (doors, dash, seats, etc). I had the 80's Half doors on my 97 defender 110, as well as other early 110 parts.

I am NOT talking about using a Series Landy as a base for a Defender. That is fraud.

But LR 90/110/127 are still pretty much the same vehicles as today's Defender 90/110/130.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:41 PM   #989
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The chassis (the coil sprung one) is largely the same. Minor mods have been made to accomodate new engines/transfer boxes/gearboxes.
Same goes for the Bulkhead; only minor changes.
All the stuff is interchangeable (doors, dash, seats, etc). I had the 80's Half doors on my 97 defender 110, as well as other early 110 parts.

I am NOT talking about using a Series Landy as a base for a Defender. That is fraud.

But LR 90/110/127 are still pretty much the same vehicles as today's Defender 90/110/130.
Yes, you're correct and I wasn't trying to say that the differences are massive. Nor do I believe it is wrong to repair or replace anything with something different, what I was trying to say was that there are enough differences to tell a 1984 part from a later one.

IMHO the vehicle shown in the earlier post that started this off was not a restored or modernised 1984 defender but a TD5 from around 2004 in its entirety that has had a 1984 VIN cloned onto it to get round the regs in US/Canada
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:33 AM   #990
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Need some help making a decision. Wife and I are planning a jaunt in a few years time. We're going to spend a month in each of Italy, Greece, Turkey, Iran and maybe two in India, visiting places like Pompeii, Athens, Hisarlik, Persepolis etc. Kind of a retirement trip.

The obvious candidate for a vehicle is a Landy but everything I read suggests not. We want to buy the vehicle soon, run it as a second car for a couple of years and gradually prepare it for the trip. The need is simple; (in no particular order) economical, room to store equipment, 4x4 capability, able to sleep in or using a roof tent type set-up, comfort, reliability.

I've narrowed it down to a choice of four:

1. BMW X3 xDrive 2.0d SE - 31,140 - 48.7 mpg



2. Volvo XC60 - 2.4 D5 SE 4WD - 32,870 - 50.4 mpg



3. Mini Countryman - 2.0 Cooper SD All4 - 23,505 - 57.6 mpg



4. Land Rover Defender 90 - 2.4D XS Station Wagon - 28,895 - 28.8 mpg



The BMW and Volvo seem to be the sensible options and a matter of personal choice between them. The Mini is in as we both love Minis, the price is considerably cheeper, perhaps allowing fewer nights in tents and more in hotels plus it's extremely economical. The Landy is both our choice of preference and the original idea we had but boy, it's thirsty and not the most comfortable cabin.

I realise I'm posting this where Landy-lovers are more likely to contribute an opinion but any input to help us make the decision welcomed.
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