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Old 05-09-2008, 05:58 PM   #1741
Ladder106
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Location: Davis, CA
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Fuel starvation? It's nuts when you have two problems at once but maybe that's what happened. The fact that you can keep it running by making the mixture richer sounds to me like the mixture is leaning out for some reason.

The other "Achilles Heel" of the ATs (that the TA doesn't have) is the stock electrical fuel pump. I've seen you've already discovered xrv.org.uk so you can search a few posts there about the Facet fuel pump replacement.

A quick diagnostic would be to pull the fuel line to the carbs and gravity feed the bike fuel from another container. Take the fuel pump out of action and see if the problem repeats. Since it's doing this at idle, you won't have to ride around with a shade-tree tank....just make it so you're certain that the fuel is getting to the carbs. If the problem repeats, I'd start looking at the carbs.

Did you have the carbs apart? Would it be possible that a float is hanging up causing the engine to flood? Did you make certain to put the CV "lids" back on correctly? There is a small air passage that is only opened when the lids are on correctly (at least on the TA carbs). Crud from sitting around got into a pilot jet? Does the bike run at larger throttle openings? It sounds like it doesn't which is why I'm suspecting your not getting enough fuel up to the carbs.

A plug change certainly couldn't hurt but since they were just overloaded with fuel in the non-firing cylinder they should have dried by now and be OK. It's not like they'd get oil fouled like on a 2 stroke.

If it is the fuel pump, I've had good luck with the vacuum operated Mikuni pump if you're looking for a quick cheap replacement. The diaphragm lasted about 6000 mi. and replacement is quick and inexpensive. The pump didn't fail completely, the bike just started starving for fuel over 6000 RPM and then at progressivly lower RPMs as the diaphragm got stretched and weaker.

It's tough to do long distance diagnostics....I really thought you had it nailed with the CDIs.

Let us know what happens
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Old 05-10-2008, 07:30 AM   #1742
shinoda
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Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeickey
G - Changing the plugs will certainly not hurt and it will eliminate a potential problem also I know it sounds stupid but check the fuel.

Squily - I agree on the 14.4 V as a normal running voltage.

Shinoda - nice pipe!...does it add any performance to the beast? or is it just cosmetic and euphoric?

Mine runs great but I know she has more potential and I was trying to determine what would give her that extra umph....
Eeickey (i hope i pronounced it correctly ) - thanks. first of all it is 5kg lesser than the stock pipe . my buddies and myself did feel a significant different right after i swapped it, some claimed can wheelie on 2nd gear . Next thing i removed the baffle, which sounded deeper and louder but kind of losing a little on the acceleration, i suppose it is due to the lost of compression from the baffle (???), but got it sorted out after my first service to her (all plugs changed and reset the carb etc.). now she runs like a dream.
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Old 05-10-2008, 07:38 AM   #1743
shinoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeickey
or is it just cosmetic and euphoric?
btw, that itself is a very good reason too

check this out -> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=25623
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:09 AM   #1744
atgreg
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From the Optic rallye thread in racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummo
No I didnt swap my 690for the 84 Honda. This Libyan guy turns up with this factory 84 dakar bike. Apparently it was left in the desert by Honda after the clutch failed in the 84 edition. the pilot was Eric Piroud and the bike was well know by many guys in the bivi. The Libyan "owner" got a bit nervous when we all started to crowd around it and guys started saying they knew the original owner.


It was in bad need of a clutch, air filter, front disc pads....ran so smooth...we all drooled!
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:11 AM   #1745
atgreg
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Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cummo
The not quite so new side! The libyan guy actually asked if we would have this panel!!
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:12 AM   #1746
atgreg
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another pic of the bike
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Old 05-11-2008, 03:38 AM   #1747
atgreg
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Just been for a weekend away, what a hoot , here's some piccies;



















And fianlly, while this is not an AT its a magic bike !!!
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Old 05-11-2008, 07:29 AM   #1748
Ladder106
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Rescue Mission

Ever since I read about Piroud's bike I've been dreaming of an "Indiana Jones" type rescue missioon.......travel to Libya, find the bike, buy it back and restore it.

Wouldn't that be fantastic.

..........and then reality sets in.

It is very cool that the machine has been running for 20 years with essentially no maintenance and it still pretty much in one piece.

Greg, you outta cross-post this over at xrv.org.uk......some of those guys would go nuts over this one.
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Old 05-11-2008, 09:20 AM   #1749
G-Funk
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Talking Twin Frustration continues ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladder106
Fuel starvation? It's nuts when you have two problems at once but maybe that's what happened. The fact that you can keep it running by making the mixture richer sounds to me like the mixture is leaning out for some reason.

The other "Achilles Heel" of the ATs (that the TA doesn't have) is the stock electrical fuel pump. I've seen you've already discovered xrv.org.uk so you can search a few posts there about the Facet fuel pump replacement.

A quick diagnostic would be to pull the fuel line to the carbs and gravity feed the bike fuel from another container. Take the fuel pump out of action and see if the problem repeats. Since it's doing this at idle, you won't have to ride around with a shade-tree tank....just make it so you're certain that the fuel is getting to the carbs. If the problem repeats, I'd start looking at the carbs.

Did you have the carbs apart? Would it be possible that a float is hanging up causing the engine to flood? Did you make certain to put the CV "lids" back on correctly? There is a small air passage that is only opened when the lids are on correctly (at least on the TA carbs). Crud from sitting around got into a pilot jet? Does the bike run at larger throttle openings? It sounds like it doesn't which is why I'm suspecting your not getting enough fuel up to the carbs.

A plug change certainly couldn't hurt but since they were just overloaded with fuel in the non-firing cylinder they should have dried by now and be OK. It's not like they'd get oil fouled like on a 2 stroke.

If it is the fuel pump, I've had good luck with the vacuum operated Mikuni pump if you're looking for a quick cheap replacement. The diaphragm lasted about 6000 mi. and replacement is quick and inexpensive. The pump didn't fail completely, the bike just started starving for fuel over 6000 RPM and then at progressivly lower RPMs as the diaphragm got stretched and weaker.

It's tough to do long distance diagnostics....I really thought you had it nailed with the CDIs.

Let us know what happens
Yo Ladder .....

Well I replaced the two easy access plugs, today I'm removing the tank to replace the two under the tank. The 2 I removed, I must say, were definitely fouled. Though the bike would not catch when I tried to start it. Whereas before with the 2 fouled plugs in, it would start, run for a bit, and die. ???????

We'll see what happens after I replace the other 2 plugs, but now I'm starting to think else where, like in fact, the fuel pump.

Carbs, yeah I went through them with a fine tooth comb, but I can open them up again, and I made sure to no crud got in ....... The lids, to the best of my knowledge I reassambled the carbs correctly. I suppose since I'm gonna have the bike all naked again That checking the carbs once more couldn't hurt.

I like your thought on removing the fuel pump out of the mix and see what happens, cause again that's where I'm leaning to at this moment ....

So to recap .....

Before the CDI went out, the thing ran like a mother.
With what I'm presuming, 4 fouled plugs due to the CDI failure, it would start, run for a few minutes and then drop in RPM. I've dealt with fuel issues on other bikes, and it totally seems like she's not getting the juice, eh.
With 2 fouled plugs replaced with freshies ... she won't catch at all.
Which to me seems spark related, as in the plugs aren't sparking. That's just a thought that started rattling around in my head since yesterday ....

Thoughts and oppinions everyone .......

G.
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Old 05-11-2008, 10:15 AM   #1750
Ladder106
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If it was just fouled plugs, it outta run with one good one in each cylinder.
Make sure the right side kill switch is on.....don't laugh...this guy has bitten me big time before.
.....then....

Ground a plug against the case and make sure you've actually got spark in each cylinder. If so, I'd try the old "shade-tree" diagnostic whereby you dribble some fuel inside each sparkplug hole, replace the plugs and hit the starter.....if it fires - even for just a few strokes - you know you're not getting fuel into the cylinders.

You should be able to do this without going through all the "remove the tank" work.

Then try the gravity feed to the carbs and see what happens.

It's easy to get compacent when working with gasoline...remember to use appropriate caution
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Old 05-11-2008, 01:12 PM   #1751
G-Funk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladder106
If it was just fouled plugs, it outta run with one good one in each cylinder.
Make sure the right side kill switch is on.....don't laugh...this guy has bitten me big time before.
.....then....

Ground a plug against the case and make sure you've actually got spark in each cylinder. If so, I'd try the old "shade-tree" diagnostic whereby you dribble some fuel inside each sparkplug hole, replace the plugs and hit the starter.....if it fires - even for just a few strokes - you know you're not getting fuel into the cylinders.

You should be able to do this without going through all the "remove the tank" work.

Then try the gravity feed to the carbs and see what happens.

It's easy to get compacent when working with gasoline...remember to use appropriate caution


I'm rather anal when it comes to working on things, but thanks just the same.

Ironically, me and one of my buddys are thinking it's fuel related since she's not even catching. He's gonna be over in about ..... oh 5 minutes from now ... and we will be comencing. Including checking the plugs against the cyl case.

I'm thinking two things actually happened.
1. Blew a CDI
2. Blew a fuel pump.

And the two happened so close together I originally lumped them into one problem.

I'll update ya'll later today ....

G.
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:19 AM   #1752
ozcan
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@ Fuel Pump

My guess is fuel pump... a notorious problem. Replaced mine with a vacuum fuel pump at 45,000 km. Have done double that now on my current RD04.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:43 AM   #1753
G-Funk
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Laugh Twin Frustation - Update

K, found out what it is, though me and my friend decided to strip down all nekked like anyways. Over the course of the next few days I'm going to totally clean the frame, etc. Mind you we didn't completely strip out everything, just the plastics, tank, seat ........

Anyhow, Gentlemen, first we shot some starter fluid in the air filter box, and boom, she fired right up for a few seconds. This was still with the two hidden plugs that were "dirty" from when the CDI went out. So it wasn't a spark issue, it was a fuel issue.

We basically then went through all of the areas encompassing the fuel system, from the petcocks down to the fuel filter, and then to the pump. When we tested out the pump, boom ... it didnt work. We both said, Done!, and I was going to order a fuel pump today, which I still may do, BUT, it was not the pump.

We did some further testing just to be sure, and decide to unplug the modular connector that goes down to the fuel pump, and direct connect it to the battery - Boom! The fuel pump was working ?!?!?!?!

We put the tank back on, didn't bolt it, but then ran all the hoses all proper like, and left the fuel pump wiring connected to the battery, turned her on, and Bammo! Running like a mother!

We let it run for like 15 minutes to 20 minutes, and there was no problem. The fuel pump was just pumping away, like a good fuel pump should.

So we started tracking wires and the like, and that lead us up to the front under the clocks. The other end of the modular plug down by the fuel pump goes into a relay. We unplugged the relay, and direct connected the wiring to the battery, and Blammo! She fired up. Test out the relay, no juice.

So my fuel cutoff (at least that's what it's called in the xrv750 manual) relay is blown.

It's a Shindengen CF304A relay. Ladder, Jim, anybody ...... where can I get one of these ?!?!?!?!?

I'm just happy we figured out what the hell was wrong on her.

G.
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:48 PM   #1754
Jim Rowley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Funk
It's a Shindengen CF304A relay. Ladder, Jim, anybody ...... where can I get one of these ?!?!?!?!?

I'm just happy we figured out what the hell was wrong on her.

G.
Good job on the investigating work. Auto parts stores carry an assortment of relays. Try those first.

Jim.
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:56 PM   #1755
Ladder106
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YAY !!!!!

It's so cool when everything works.....well done.

I agree with Jim....a relay is a relay is a relay....don't really matter what kind as long as it's 12v and fits where you want it.

Not to spoil your day, but the fuel pump can still be a problem area so researching replacing it might be a good PM idea.

Jim,
Santa over at "Show Us Your TA Mods" thread is having some difficulty transplanting a NT650 engine into the TA frame....seems the front motor mount interferes with the exhaust pipe. We looked at partsfiche without much sucess. A photo of the front motor mount/exhaust pipe area would be helpful....if you wouldn't mind.
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