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Old 10-22-2012, 11:46 AM   #1636
Worroll
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It's hard to compare a limited production sport tourer to a limited production 'chopper'. You can't buy anything like a custom chopper from Honda, even their new Fury just has that mass production look. But you can find all sorts of sport tourers that compare to the Motus.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:52 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Remember that the big touring bikes aren't far short of that already. Option up a Gold Wing or a K1600GT or GTL, and you're pretty damn close to that. Buy a HD CVO bike, and you're spending more than that, for a bike that has great build quality but is considerably less capable in most ways than the Motus will be. Quite a few of the top sportbikes are at or above $20K these days. I don't think they are necessarily way out in left field on this.

PhilB
For $30K you'd be getting the top of the line Goldwing, including a freaking airbag! If you go with the base Goldwing, that still has more features than the Motus, you're on $24K.

30K ? Save for a fully loaded Goldwing, no other tourer comes close to that price, even a fully loaded GTL1600 is "just" $25.5K! (Don't even try comparing the features, it's not even fair)

For just $18,000 you can get a ST1300, with a proven V4, ABS and a nice set of non generic side bags...

Which is pretty much on par "featurewise" with the Motus...


Does the Motus seriously add $12,000 worth of craftmanship? Heck, those generic GM coil packs and 10" sparkplug wires sure look sexy as hell! Boutique priced bike, with generic luggage, exposed generic automotive coils, sensors, wires and a chain drive? It doesn't even have the "pedigree" some other, cheaper, boutique bikes have.

I WANT to like the Motus, but that's not a $30K bike.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:10 PM   #1638
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Let's just call it the Motus "Emperor's New Clothes" model..............only the beauty and value will be seen by those who deem themselves worthy/chosen. I am only the peasant who sees it for what it is.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:27 PM   #1639
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Originally Posted by Yostwerks View Post
Is that someone else you ?

If not, why not ?

Tom
It could be me. Depends on how it feels to actually ride -- the proof is in the bottling. ;)


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Originally Posted by whisperquiet View Post
Let's just call it the Motus "Emperor's New Clothes" model..............only the beauty and value will be seen by those who deem themselves worthy/chosen. I am only the peasant who sees it for what it is.
The Emperor will ride, while the peasants will rationalize their poor taste and seethe in their envy, and protest ever over-loudly their disdain for those who can and do have better.

Is that enough class-warfare rhetoric for ya, Mr. whisperquiet? Sheesh.

PhilB
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:33 PM   #1640
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Get one and park it next to your Yankee http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...9,r:1,s:0,i:74

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Old 10-22-2012, 04:39 PM   #1641
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Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
Boutique priced bike, with generic luggage, exposed generic automotive coils, sensors, wires and a chain drive? It doesn't even have the "pedigree" some other, cheaper, boutique bikes have.
And don't forget the parts bin headlight sourced from KTM and used on the KTM 950/990
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #1642
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"The Emperor will ride, while the peasants will rationalize their poor taste and seethe in their envy, and protest ever over-loudly their disdain for those who can and do have better.

Is that enough class-warfare rhetoric for ya, Mr. whisperquiet? Sheesh.

PhilB"

I am not worthy of a Motus.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:58 PM   #1643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
For $30K you'd be getting the top of the line Goldwing, including a freaking airbag! If you go with the base Goldwing, that still has more features than the Motus, you're on $24K.

30K ? Save for a fully loaded Goldwing, no other tourer comes close to that price, even a fully loaded GTL1600 is "just" $25.5K! (Don't even try comparing the features, it's not even fair)

For just $18,000 you can get a ST1300, with a proven V4, ABS and a nice set of non generic side bags...

Which is pretty much on par "featurewise" with the Motus...


Does the Motus seriously add $12,000 worth of craftmanship? Heck, those generic GM coil packs and 10" sparkplug wires sure look sexy as hell! Boutique priced bike, with generic luggage, exposed generic automotive coils, sensors, wires and a chain drive? It doesn't even have the "pedigree" some other, cheaper, boutique bikes have.

I WANT to like the Motus, but that's not a $30K bike.
Comparing a boat Gold Wing or huge overweight ST1300 to a Motus is.........odd. The Motus is for someone who wants something different,limited production specialty item,you either want one or you dont. Hondas are great cookie cutter bikes,lots of them around.
$ is not the only determining factor for some.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #1644
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Seriously.

You can do as much as you want to your Falco all day long and at the end of it, guess what? It's still a Falco. A boring, mass produced, hacked together compromise that you might love dearly but it's still just a Falco. When you show up on bike night no one is going to go over to your bike because they've been dying to see the homemade sport touring Falco.

You could put a supercharger on a Corvette and paint it red but that doesn't make it a Ferrari does it?

I keep looking at that bike and I love that engine, frame and even the bags - it's a tight package. I promise you that bike will be the center of discussions wherever it's parked. It will be exclusive and unique which is something no cobbled together homemade sport tourer will be and there's a price for that. Just because you don't want to pay the price doesn't mean someone else won't.

Gregor
Exzacktly,its for some one who wants a modern pushrod V-4 American made low volume bike.

Quick! Who else is building a bike like this? ...........No one, that's who. All this comparing it to bikes that have no relation to it makes no sense,its not built to be the cheapest bike around.
I think the Motus looks great,the luggage doesnt bother me as long as it works.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:38 PM   #1645
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Quick! Who else is building a bike like this? ...........No one, that's who.
Ducati did. The ST line. Ducati quit.

I'm sure they'd have kept the ST2/3/4 in the lineup, if the sales were there.

The sport end of the sport-touring market is a niche within a niche. If Ducati gave up on this sub-niche, why will MOTUS succeed?



Back up the train a little bit further. Moto Guzzi built a great sport-tourer. The V11 LeMans. They quit it in 2004. Rarity and exclusivity didn't sell this $15k bike. Why will MOTUS succeed?

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Old 10-22-2012, 06:18 PM   #1646
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MOTUS isn't trying to make money selling 1-3,000 of them at 15k, they're trying to make money selling 300 of them at 30-35k.

I bet there are some number of people that bought VFRs, ST2/3/4s, Sprint STs, V11 Le Mans, etc, etc who would've paid 30k for them. Not as many as there were who paid 10-15k for them, but some.

If it's the right bike and someone can afford it, there's a chance they buy it.

My take on the MOTUS is it's for someone who wants a SPORTy-ST bike, but with more fairing and gas tank than has been available in that segment, and who appreciates a fine and somewhat exotic motor. The VFR trades pretty heavily on the exotic nature of it's V4, I imagine this will stand the MOTUS in good stead as well.

Will there be 300 people for whom the MOTUS will be the right combination of function, price, and visceral appeal?

that's the $30,000 question.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:46 PM   #1647
rocker59
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MOTUS isn't trying to make money selling 1-3,000 of them at 15k, they're trying to make money selling 300 of them at 30-35k.
That's $9-Million to $10.5-Million. Gross.

Will they be making money at that level?
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:06 PM   #1648
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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
Ducati did. The ST line. Ducati quit.

I'm sure they'd have kept the ST2/3/4 in the lineup, if the sales were there.

The sport end of the sport-touring market is a niche within a niche. If Ducati gave up on this sub-niche, why will MOTUS succeed?

Back up the train a little bit further. Moto Guzzi built a great sport-tourer. The V11 LeMans. They quit it in 2004. Rarity and exclusivity didn't sell this $15k bike. Why will MOTUS succeed?
Both of those were harmed, not helped, by their reputations. Ducati is known for high-performance sportbikes that are a bit finicky and require more maintenance than average. The ST-series bikes were great, and have served their owners well. But the bottom line was that sport-touring riders weren't thinking of Ducati, weren't considering the brand or even knew they had such a bike available. Moto Guzzi has been a niche bike forever, serving those who love them, and ignoring the rest of the world. They are quirky, very Italian, and have a somewhat spotty record for reliability and for service. I'm quite fond of them, and might well get one at some point, but they don't have much presence in the mainstream, nor do they have the cachet, though, to be seen as a top-of-the-market premium machine that people will pay top dollar for.

Motus is going for a real top-of-the-market niche, with unique engineering, and a riding experience with the charisma of a big-block musclecar, and the added draw of a made-in-America story, which has a lot of appeal to some people.

They may or may not succeed. I think a great deal will ride on how well they capture that big-block charisma in the actual riding. A lot may well also ride on the general health of the economy, and whether we have recovered better from the doldrums by the time the Motus hits the market.

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Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
That's $9-Million to $10.5-Million. Gross.

Will they be making money at that level?
That's per year; remember that they are not planning to just build 300 and stop. I don't know for sure whether they will be making money at that level, but my guess would be "yes", since that is their stated plan, and if that wasn't enough for them to make money, that plan would not have attracted much in the way of investors.

PhilB
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:23 PM   #1649
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Both of those were harmed, not helped, by their reputations. Ducati is known for high-performance sportbikes that are a bit finicky and require more maintenance than average. The ST-series bikes were great, and have served their owners well. But the bottom line was that sport-touring riders weren't thinking of Ducati, weren't considering the brand or even knew they had such a bike available. Moto Guzzi has been a niche bike forever, serving those who love them, and ignoring the rest of the world. They are quirky, very Italian, and have a somewhat spotty record for reliability and for service. I'm quite fond of them, and might well get one at some point, but they don't have much presence in the mainstream, nor do they have the cachet, though, to be seen as a top-of-the-market premium machine that people will pay top dollar for.
If the Ferrari and the Alfa Romeo of the motorcycle world pulled out of the "high end sporty sport touring" niche due to slow sales, how are some white boys from Alabama going to "succeed" with a name like "MOTUS"?

WTF is a "MOTUS"? The name has no history. No panache. No F-ing reason for anyone to know who they are, what they are, or why they are.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Motus is going for a real top-of-the-market niche, with unique engineering, and a riding experience with the charisma of a big-block musclecar, and the added draw of a made-in-America story, which has a lot of appeal to some people.

They may or may not succeed. I think a great deal will ride on how well they capture that big-block charisma in the actual riding. A lot may well also ride on the general health of the economy, and whether we have recovered better from the doldrums by the time the Motus hits the market.

That's per year; remember that they are not planning to just build 300 and stop. I don't know for sure whether they will be making money at that level, but my guess would be "yes", since that is their stated plan, and if that wasn't enough for them to make money, that plan would not have attracted much in the way of investors.

PhilB
Again, "top of the market niche"? WTF is a "MOTUS"?

$10M/yr. Yep. Gross. What do you think thier net will be on the bikes? How many units needed until in the black?

I still say they'll build a couple hundred units, max, and be out of the motorcycle business.

Though, I'd like to be wrong.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:43 PM   #1650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
If the Ferrari and the Alfa Romeo of the motorcycle world pulled out of the "high end sporty sport touring" niche due to slow sales, how are some white boys from Alabama going to "succeed" with a name like "MOTUS"?

WTF is a "MOTUS"? The name has no history. No panache. No F-ing reason for anyone to know who they are, what they are, or why they are.
If Ferrari and Alfa Romeo had tried building sporty SUVs, say to compete with the Porsche Cayenne or the upcoming Bentley version of that, and then stopped because people looking to such vehicles did not consider those brands due to their existing reputations and market segments, that does not necessarily have any bearing at all on the success of a new effort without the baggage.

The Motus needs no history, and will have to develop its own panache based on its modern products. Indeed, I've had my fill of new bike companies who buy an old name and try to cash in on its panache. Very few of those efforts have succeeded. Triumph is the only one I can think of that has really made it. MV Agusta sort of, but they struggle along, and Norton looks to be sinking yet again. A dozen others have failed, some multiple times.

Conversely, Victory built their success from scratch, based on a new American product in the upper level of the market, by doing a good job. WIthout "history" or "panache" or any "F-ing reason for anyone to know who they are, what they are, or why they are".

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59 View Post
Again, "top of the market niche"? WTF is a "MOTUS"?

$10M/yr. Yep. Gross. What do you think thier net will be on the bikes? How many units needed until in the black?

I still say they'll build a couple hundred units, max, and be out of the motorcycle business.

Though, I'd like to be wrong.
It doesn't sound like you'd like to be wrong. Indeed, one of things I find interesting about this conversation (here and on other boards) is the persistance and vitriol of the naysayers. If it was just a bike you didn't think you would buy, y'all could just say "I don't think I'd pay that much for it/it doesn't appeal to me that much/but I hope someone likes it and they do well". Instead what we get is a bunch of people who wish it to fail, and try very hard to argue that it will fail, because they personally can't afford one. Sour grapes, in great bunches.

PhilB
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