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Old 03-30-2012, 05:44 PM   #1171
Bueller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
Bueller,I know you don't like me...
Wrong. To suggest I don't like you is to suggest I am in some form emotionally vested in you. I'm not, and really can't be since we've never met.

However, I do not like the way you tend to represent absolutely fictitious statements as though they were fact, never supported by any sources, and never even supported by any real personal experience. You're just a mouthpiece that comes here and spews erroneous garbage to troll for your own amusement. You are entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be, but you shouldn't try to represent your opinion as fact.

Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
But track is part of the equation in the definition of a true sports-tourer.
Now here are the facts:


A Sport touring motorcycle is a type of motorcycle that blends the performance of a sport bike with the long-distance capabilities of a touring motorcycle, while providing comfort and relative safety to the rider. For the majority of the sport-tourer models on the market, manufacturers use an existing engine and technology from the current or last generation of their sport bikes. The Triumph Sprint motorcycle, for example, shared its engine with the Daytona, Speed Triple, and Tiger models. Similarly, Ducati sourced its 996 motor for its ST4 model. In some cases, whole sportbikes were re-invented as sport touring bikes. The 2000 Kawasaki ZX-6R sportbike became the 2004 ZZR600 with only a change in the front fairing bracket. This is cost effective because the maker can reuse existing tooling and parts, rather than creating a dedicated engine design from scratch.

Differences to sport bikes

Engine designs are usually modified from their sport bike origins, the aim being improved mid-range torque rather than peak horsepower. Other differences from the sportbike class may include:
A larger fairing than is implemented on sport-bikes, and an adjustable windscreen for better weather protection.
A frame that is usually designed from scratch to provide a more upright, less aggressive riding position ("all day comfort").
A longer wheelbase and more relaxed steering angle are usually also incorporated. These provide more straight-line stability than most sport bikes, but not to the degree that most pure tourers do. The addition of these heavier parts (full fairings, longer frames, heavier engine components) also serve to increase the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight, giving the bikes a smoother ride over poor surfaces.
ABS is common on sports tourers, and some manufacturers offer linked brakes
A larger fuel tank to extend the range between fueling stops.
Ground clearance is usually left fairly high, permitting more sport-like riding on twisting roads than on a pure touring bike.
The sport-tourer class has become important and competitive enough that many manufacturers now offer purpose-built engines for their sport touring models. The Honda ST series engines, for example, have never been used in any other models. The Yamaha FJR1300's engine, though closely related to the 1,000 cc R1 sport bike engines in design, is only available in the sport touring FJR models.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_touring_motorcycle

If you don't like the Wiki there are plenty of other links out there you can read that define the class of bike. "Track duty" is rarely mentioned, if ever.

Now let's analyze those facts for a moment - everything in the article that is mentioned as being modified from a sport bike predecessor is modified in a way that is BAD for track use. Examples include the steering geometry changes, greater unsprung weight, more upright riding positions, heavier parts, larger fuel tanks, etc., all are BAD for riding on the track.

Next, here's how you weave your own experiences into a discussion - assuming you actually have any experience, of course:

I spent 5 years on the track. I spent one season on a first Gen FZ-1 at Mid-Ohio, which is fairly true to the Wiki definition of a Sport Tourer. While the engine was great and I was banging about 155 on the back straight, the rest of the bike was an absolute pig. The suspension wallowed unbelievably, after being cranked up to the stiffest position. I only weighed about 170# in riding gear in those days, but the suspension was completely inadequate, as was the amount of available lean angle. My lap times averaged about 1:47. Conversely, I could pull 1:45's on a 53 horsepower supermoto that topped out at 100 mph and bounced off of the rev limiter in top gear all the way down the back straight. I could easily pull low 1:40's on a Buell XB12 Firebolt, and could touch the high 1:30's if I was really pushing my braking markers.

The next bike you talk about - your beloved R1100S - was an absolute pig. Much like the FZ-1 it was significantly overweight for track use. The slop in the shaft drive system is too abrupt and jerky for real track use, and the bike only got away with this arrangement because unlike that FZ-1 I rode that made 130HP at the rear wheel, the R1100S was making about 80 hp at the rear wheel. That meant the jerky, sloppy shaft system being driven by that wheezing boxer engine was unable to upset the rear tire's traction.

And for your information, the boxer cup bikes on the race track had some changes from the R1100S you bought off of the showroom floor that made them only slightly better on the track. Even the ones that raced only raced each other, because they just weren't good enough or fast enough to beat most anything else. Suggesting a boxer cup is a great track bike is to suggest that the Harley 883 Sportster is also a great track bike because a few years ago Harley sponsored an 883 Sportster racing series. Both of them are comparative dogs on a track.

Though I've mentioned it before, I'll tell you again - I don't have anything against BMW. I've owned 10 of them. They make a great touring bike. They make great sport touring bikes. They make great adventure bikes. Not as reliable as they should be and generally more expensive to maintain than they should be, but great bikes nonetheless.

Lastly what many people here don't like about you is the fact that you do this to troll. I know it, you know it, and many others know it. You aren't fooling anyone. If I really thought you were just misguided I'd suggest you go do some demo rides on the very bikes you keep picking on so you can learn something, but most of us doubt you even know how to ride a motorcycle.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #1172
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Bueller and Boxer-Lust

are you guys married to each other?
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:15 AM   #1173
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No,they outlawed gay-marriage in CA...
But I guy that is just a mouthpiece for Wilkipedia is too stupid for me and no marriage material anyways...
An ST4 looks like a sport-tourer but never will be because if you rack up some miles that thing will eat you alive on maintenance bill$...
Good sports-tourers of their times where bikes like R90S,R100RS,R1100RS and R1100S.
The VFR 800 comes to my mind,too.
Today the VFR12 and K13S,even if they could be a little lighter or a F800ST if you don't need 100+ hp...
The rest is unfortunately either too upright,too heavy or both to be called SPORTS-tourer.
A MOTUS could fit the description if it lives up to it's hype if it wasn't for chaindrive...(and if you can afford to pay $30K+)
If it had a belt or shaft and would cost $15K for the stripper and $19K for the full option Ohlins version and had ABS I'll bet a lot of people would be all over it despite having no dealer-network to speak of and being a totally unproven design...
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:12 AM   #1174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
track is part of the equation in the definition of a true sports-tourer.
Huh?

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Old 03-31-2012, 01:32 AM   #1175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
No,they outlawed gay-marriage in CA...
But I guy that is just a mouthpiece for Wilkipedia is too stupid for me and no marriage material anyways...
An ST4 looks like a sport-tourer but never will be because if you rack up some miles that thing will eat you alive on maintenance bill$...
Good sports-tourers of their times where bikes like R90S,R100RS,R1100RS and R1100S.
The VFR 800 comes to my mind,too.
Today the VFR12 and K13S,even if they could be a little lighter or a F800ST if you don't need 100+ hp...
The rest is unfortunately either too upright,too heavy or both to be called SPORTS-tourer.
A MOTUS could fit the description if it lives up to it's hype if it wasn't for chaindrive...(and if you can afford to pay $30K+)
If it had a belt or shaft and would cost $15K for the stripper and $19K for the full option Ohlins version and had ABS I'll bet a lot of people would be all over it despite having no dealer-network to speak of and being a totally unproven design...
The VFR comes to your mind too? Glad to see that the bench mark of sport touring gets a mention. (no, it's not the R1100S)

VFR, Aprilia Futura, Duc ST2/3/4, Triumph Sprint, despite how YOU define sport tourer.

And hell, if track is part of the definition i can slap some soft bags on my 955 Daytona and it's a better sport tourer than your R1100S ever was.

But do go on, i find how you think fascinating. Not necessarily grounded in any form of reality, but fascinating none the less.
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Old 03-31-2012, 04:28 AM   #1176
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And for some, a definition's not important ...

Who makes up these terms under which bikes get classed?

My guess:

1. Marketing consultants.

2. Magazine editors.

Either way, the question what counts and what does not is a question they answer based on what they think actual buyers want from their bikes.

Buyers, owners and riders: that's us, contributors to this board.

Now I don't know about any of you, but when I am researching or speculating about buying a bike, I don't think to myself, "I want a sport-tourer", and then go looking for a definition of sport-tourer so that I can see what bikes to rule out.

For me, it works the other way. I think about what I want, and then look around for what out there comes close.

So, whether or not the Motus is a "true" sport tourer is something for the marketing and magazine guys to think about. And their opinions on that question don't interest me much.

But for sure, those guys won't be arguing that a true sport-tourer must be an entertaining, low-maintenance, owner-serviceable, mid-priced track bike with comfortable long-distance seating for two, a long-range tank and shaft drive.

Why not? Because the point of coming up with a term like "sport tourer" (or "hypersports", "naked", "dual-sport") is that it groups together a bunch of different bikes.

It's a marketing tool. And beyond that, ready reference at best. (IMO.)
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:38 AM   #1177
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From their website:

"for die-hard riding enthusiasts. To design the ultimate street bike fast, lightweight and comfortable for long distance canyon carving and high performance riding, whether solo or two-up. To deliver an all new machine that combines legendary racing technology with the practical needs of serious sport riders.

The MST is the destiny of everything we imagined a sport tourer could be - an authentic American-made machine with incredible responsiveness, massive torque and enough comfort and practicality to satisfy the most demanding rider.
"
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:28 AM   #1178
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The perfect SPORTourer...

Cos let me fascinate you even more...!
The "perfect sport tourer" is a bike that is fun and capable on the track,is low maintenance and reliable,and capable to carry 2 people with gear dry and secure in hard bags comfortable over long distance.
ABS,shaft/beltdrive is a plus.
So what was wrong using the R1100S as the best example for a true Sports-tourer?
It was fun and capable on the track with it's entertaining Boxer-Cup race series,very cheap and easy to maintain,especially valve adjustments,only hydraulic adjusters would have been easier,reliable and long lasting over many miles,saw one with 170K miles and first everything on the road,ABS and shaft and comfortable enough to go 2-up over long distances with gear in factory hardbags.
Despite all this I did not say it was perfect...
It would have been with the latest 1200cc dohc boxer,24 liter tank,40 lbs lighter and gear indicator/fuel gauge instead of idiot lights...
But unfortunately that upgrade never came...The "R1200RS" definately would have been the perfect Sport-tourer...
The ball is in your court...
All MOTUS has to do is put shaftdrive on their bike and drop the prices by $15K and they might be getting pretty close to the definition on paper,if the bike handles in the real world.
But low maintenance car technology with high maintenance chain is just plain stupid not only from a marketing standpoint.Also ABS ist a must on $31K-37K "premium motorcycle" when even aentry level Honda CBR250 offers that safety device on a $4K bike...
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:44 AM   #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
All MOTUS has to do is put shaftdrive on their bike
But low maintenance car technology with high maintenance chain is just plain stupid
Ya, we get it, you don't like it.. but some of us do. The only thing I don't like about it is the price.. (and the parts bin headlight)

Chain technology, like everything else on bikes, has greatly improved. My bike will do an easy 18 to 20K miles on a set of sprockets and chain. Lubrication is mess-free: I use a Dupont teflon spray, no flinging, no mess. I can visually inspect the chain and sprockets for signs of wear and have plenty of time to prepare to replace them. The other big plus is being able to tailor the sprocket ratios to your liking or riding preference.. taller gearing, lower gearing, just swap out the front or rear sprocket. Try that with a drive shaft.

Drive shafts: Maintenance free? You need to replace the final drive fluid and you also need to lubricate the splines at both ends of the driveshaft. U joints on drive shafts have been known to break without warning, requiring a new $800 drive shaft, not so easy to do when you're in the middle of BFE.

At any rate, your seagull posts in this thread and others in the RW forum appear to annoy some and entertain others.. and those who are laughing are doing it at your expense.

Perfect sport tourer is in the eyes of the beholder. If you are a moto journalist, your soap box is bigger than most. For me, at $12000, I can have me a Z1000SX (aka Ninja 1000) ABS, a 500 lbs ready to ride upright sport touring machine with the benefit of a wide dealer network, reliability, easily adjustable screen, panniers and the ultimate benefit of chain drive. With some exhaust mods, and Power controller, I've seen someone get 152 hp at the rear wheel. Check out the Ninja 1000 thread in this forum.
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:45 AM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
Cos let me fascinate you even more...!
The "perfect sport tourer" is a bike that is fun and capable on the track,is low maintenance and reliable,and capable to carry 2 people with gear dry and secure in hard bags comfortable over long distance.
ABS,shaft/beltdrive is a plus.
So what was wrong using the R1100S as the best example for a true Sports-tourer?
It was fun and capable on the track with it's entertaining Boxer-Cup race series,very cheap and easy to maintain,especially valve adjustments,only hydraulic adjusters would have been easier,reliable and long lasting over many miles,saw one with 170K miles and first everything on the road,ABS and shaft and comfortable enough to go 2-up over long distances with gear in factory hardbags.
Despite all this I did not say it was perfect...
It would have been with the latest 1200cc dohc boxer,24 liter tank,40 lbs lighter and gear indicator/fuel gauge instead of idiot lights...
But unfortunately that upgrade never came...The "R1200RS" definately would have been the perfect Sport-tourer...
The ball is in your court...
All MOTUS has to do is put shaftdrive on their bike and drop the prices by $15K and they might be getting pretty close to the definition on paper,if the bike handles in the real world.
But low maintenance car technology with high maintenance chain is just plain stupid not only from a marketing standpoint.Also ABS ist a must on $31K-37K "premium motorcycle" when even aentry level Honda CBR250 offers that safety device on a $4K bike...
How do you consider a chain high maintenance? I've got over 38,000kms on my CBF, have adjusted the chain twice, between tire changes and I'm not that anal about lubing it or keeping it clean either. It doesn't look like it's going to wear out anytime soon either. High maintenance chain. Not anymore with modern X or O ring chains. I've spent less time looking after my chain on my CBF than I did changing fluid on the Meanstreak or the "lifetime" fluid on the RT which turned out to not be really good for the lifetime of the bike after all.

I used to be hung up on shaft drive, had one on my Meanstreak and on the R1200RT, but realized I really don't care what the heck is driving the back wheel, I just buy a bike I like to ride and ride it.
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:04 PM   #1181
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I sat on the silver one at bike week. The ergos really reminded me of my Buell S3T except my Buell had a clock
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:20 PM   #1182
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At any rate, your seagull posts in this thread and others in the RW forum appear to annoy some and entertain others.. and those who are laughing are doing it at your expense.
Actually I think it's at BMW's expense. Like I said before, I think he's a plant from Honda
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:51 PM   #1183
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The perfect Sports-tourer...

On shafts of todays beemers there are no splines.Just at the tranny which doesn't need to be lubed because it doesn't move.
I just change the oil once a year.15 min job,no big deal at all.
Much better that lubing,adjusting the cain and cleaning the rearwheel.And having to change chains/sprockets every other season.
I would never go back to chains;only if I would restore an old Model T Ford...
I don't say I do not like the MOTUS;I actually would like it a lot with shaftdrive for half the price they are trying to get for it.That is why I post here...
Besides it is stupid if you have the perfect north/south angled crank like a boxer,guzzi or honda CX or ST1200/1300, to put another another powersapping and weight inducing 90 degree gearset on it only to make it suitable for chaindrive...That is what you get when you let car guys design the drivetrain...
Here goes the only supposed advantage of chaindrive,which is weight...
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Old 03-31-2012, 02:33 PM   #1184
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Originally Posted by Boxer-lust View Post
On shafts of todays beemers there are no splines.Just at the tranny which doesn't need to be lubed because it doesn't move.
What?? Keep riding without lubing the splines and you're in for a surprise Dood, we need to set you up in your own "Boxer-Lust's Motorcycle Truths and Myths" thread.. and you can spin all the yarn you want... and we won't let facts get in the way of your tales

12 GS photos below:





Different strokes for different folks... and all that jazz... I used to be a shaft drive only guy... I've now gone full circle.. back to chains only, unless it's a Honda.
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Old 03-31-2012, 03:20 PM   #1185
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Originally Posted by GB View Post
What?? Keep riding without lubing the splines and you're in for a surprise Dood, we need to set you up in your own "Boxer-Lust's Motorcycle Truths and Myths" thread.. and you can spin all the yarn you want... and we won't let facts get in the way of your tales
You can probably save a bit of typing by leaving "truths" out of it, just like Boxer-Lust does
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