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Old 11-06-2009, 08:26 AM   #46
redhandmoto
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Thanks, Bermshot. Wow. You can't get much more candor than that. I appreciate hearing from an actual person in the midst of things who has and offers real info, rather than the typical wall of inscrutability through which scoots usually come. Thanks also for helping end the flurry of speculation and guessing that usually follows new product announcement - I think that a demonstrated willingness to talk directly about a product will only help you guys.

Gives me a headache to think about what people go through to bring a new scoot to market, from identifying the market, developing a decent design to fill it, sourcing manufacturers for quality components and assembly, getting it through the Gummint drill, marketing it, and finally supporting the thing. Bets of luck to you - staying tuned...
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:28 AM   #47
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future colors, developing accessories.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:40 AM   #48
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The ride and feel is like my Rally 200 or a GS. It is a taller scooter, I'm 5'6" and am tiptoe on both feet, It looks like they may have lowered the seat heigth on the bench seat some.
The turn to turn lock is not as sharp as the metal scooters but the steering rake is still pretty low. We changed to spring rate adjustable rear shocks after I was able to bottom them out with a passenger. I still would scrape the left side center stand on hard left turns, can't promise that the engineers have done any changes yet.
The 49 cc version has rear disc brake but is still carburated.

Bermshot screwed with this post 11-06-2009 at 08:52 AM
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bermshot
I've been asked to get in here and answer any questions you may have. I'm Paul from Hammerhead and have been with Adly Moto since they started in the US.
The La Vita project has nothing to do with Adly. We have tried for years to get them to build a retro style unit, then Lambretta came on after they split with CMSI but no one could come to terms with the tooling. I'm still hoping at some point we can get the 2 stroke 50cc engine I got certified back in 05 in one of the La Vita's but it's not my money that makes the decissions.

This is a consortium betwewen the tool & die maker, injection molding, painter all of whom do work for Yamaha & Suzuki, and Hammerhead. We only have the rights to N. America so you may see these in other counties under other names and engine usage.
The engine we have used for years is a typical GY6 made by Zhejiang Jinlang in our gocarts and has proven to be pretty reliable. I have talked to some cart racers that have modified our carts for whatever class they can ride in with one guy saying he is getting almost 20HP on the dyno and has made 2 seasons without any failure or rebuilds, though I don't know the frequency of use.
We have used a throttle body type FI system that is a partnership in Taiwan with Delphi. It is not a super complicated system with most of the parameters being burned in and not reprogrammable unless you have the equipment to reflash them.
In our EPA testing it provided very low output of CO & HC and got 80MPG at the 45 mph speed that it averaged over the tests. I do not have any real life usage figures yet
You can check out some other blogs on ScooterBBS and 2stroke buzz so I don't have to repeat all the statements.
We have simply tried to put out the best looking vintage style scooter with the compromises for cost of production to make an affordable good lookng bike. We don't think we have reinvented anything and have no illusions of granduer that we have built the perfect scooter. I know a 300Z or Miata is not a replacement for a Ferrari, but it does have it's place in the market and that is what we are hoping to achieve here.
When I was a Genuine dealer at my old store, Scooters of Dallas (sold, now Vespa of Dallas) I could have sold another 100 Stellas if they had been auto's. There is nitch that likes the retro but don't want the shifting. I did try to get Revloc to make a auto clutch but Phil did not want any part of it and I transitioned over to Adly Moto and dropped it
This bike is all plastic body (painted ABS) and being so you have to design and adjust to compensate for the difference in chassis strength and attachments. We did use stainless nuts & bolts on the external hardware to keep corrosion to a minimum but can't state what grade they are, as some one has questioned. The underlying hardware and mounts are standard mild steel. The rear engine cowls do not have quick releases at this time but the complete tail section comes off as one part, takes about 10 minutes. The storage cover is actually the access to the battery area.
They are working on a glovebox to add on.
Production started this week on the first batch with the 4 colors stated before and if all goes well at customs we should get them just before Christmas, not the best of timing, but hey , we got them here in 09(2010 model yr) as stated .
I just got the emissions test on the 49cc (Linhai) motor and have to send it to the lawyers to see if it is acceptable to the EPA, so it may be Feb before we have anything. The motors I tested when I was in Shanghai this summer were slugs. They tell me this motor is better - 35MPH on flat ground but still not up to Adly 50 type speed. The Linhai do have a decent reputation but I do not have any firsthand experience with it to give an opinion. Too many states dealers can only sell 49cc so they have green lighted this one
I have had a low 90% fill rate with Adly parts the last years, mainly certain painted parts shortage, but the last 6 months have been at 99%. I don't think I have ever left anyone hanging more than 3 weeks to get something in that I was short on. I have put in my intitial parts order to be shipped with the 1st container of scooters, hope it is not restricted by anyone over me, that would leave me naked on only the most obscure part. I'm sure someone will prove me wrong as I build up a usage model of parts levels.
Ask questions, offer advice, opinions will be judged by my own opinion but points taken for spelling and neatness.
Well the 4 stroke 50 to beat right now is the SYM Mio. IIRC which can do just under 40 mph. When I think about this the old Honda C102 I own also can do just under 40.

So, why is being able to do almost 40 mph such a big deal when Honda has had a step though that can do this speed since the early '60's? I mean shouldn't we be able to see nearly 50 mph from the present state of tune of most modern 4 stroke motors used in these bikes?

To clarify my opinion about the Adly 50's, once they were jetted correctly, and the CDI derestricted, they were fine little bikes. I'd actually say that the Thunderbike 50 was every bit as good as the SYM Jet Euro, if not a bit faster. But the additional work to get it to run right, meaning the f@#%ing access to the carburetor, and I'm assuming that you know what I'm talking about..

No disrespect here, but someone will have to work on these bikes.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:25 PM   #50
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Wow ! Great job of "state of the union" on this project Paul ! I think having ridden both this bike and the mio ; the mio is a lot smaller and probably weighs less. The LaVita I rode was an 110 or a 125 bound for europe and it had lots of power . I guess we will have to wait and see if the new 49.5 engine Paul has will do it . I was hoping we could get the Adly 2 stoke minnarelli style motor in it but it did not happen . This has been a " fast track" project and Paul is the guy who made it happen .

I believe we may get the GREEN or BLUE instead of the PINK ; at least I have been lobbying for it .
Paul and I have been trying to get the acess to the carb issue resolved with Adly for a long time and hopefully it will happen soon on those models .

The blue color bike in the pictures Paul put up show the optional front luggage rack and front and rear fender guards . I was told Paul will have these available to our dealer system .
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:19 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamaGeek
So, why is being able to do almost 40 mph such a big deal when Honda has had a step though that can do this speed since the early '60's? I mean shouldn't we be able to see nearly 50 mph from the present state of tune of most modern 4 stroke motors used in these bikes?

No disrespect here, but someone will have to work on these bikes.

True; point well-made.

Always figgered that this is responsive to the winked-at "open secret" of 49cc scoots: that in many places, there is some sort of "speed-barrier" requiring registration, tags, insurance, and an "M" endorsement on the licence of an operator of any bike capable of meeting or exceeding a specific stautory speed.

In my state, it's 35 mph. Get clocked above 35 (or is it "at 35"??? "Meet' or "Exceed"?? Cripes, I don't know..), and you get a variety of citations.

If most 49cc scoots came out of the box able to do 48 or so, many places would define them as motorcycles. And there would go volume sales.

If a 49cc scoot must be tinkered with and altered for better performance after the sale, then the onus of doing so rests solely on the tinkerer/rider. The same model sitting unmodified on the dealer's floor can be sold here to and operated by anyone sixteen or over without worry of "motorcycle' requirements and expense for the rider or the bike. Built-in mechanical restriction and leanijng-out of carbs is done by manufacturers with the market vs local regulations in mind, as well as the EPA.

Higher performing scoot components are likely more expensive than their stock counterparts. Tiny carbs, single disc or drum brakes (less effective for higher speeds) keep the manufacturing cost down, and the thing stays more affordable for the penniless and endorsementless student.

When I bought my first scoot, the seller was unaware that I had an M endorsement and bigger bikes. He showed me how I might just pop-off the "150" badge and - if I was discrete around the boys in blue - no one would be the wiser, since the 49cc and the 150cc of this marque and model were virtually identical.

This is just speculatin' on my part, 'course...
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:39 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamaGeek
Well the 4 stroke 50 to beat right now is the SYM Mio. IIRC which can do just under 40 mph. When I think about this the old Honda C102 I own also can do just under 40.

So, why is being able to do almost 40 mph such a big deal when Honda has had a step though that can do this speed since the early '60's? I mean shouldn't we be able to see nearly 50 mph from the present state of tune of most modern 4 stroke motors used in these bikes?

To clarify my opinion about the Adly 50's, once they were jetted correctly, and the CDI derestricted, they were fine little bikes. I'd actually say that the Thunderbike 50 was every bit as good as the SYM Jet Euro, if not a bit faster. But the additional work to get it to run right, meaning the f@#%ing access to the carburetor, and I'm assuming that you know what I'm talking about..

No disrespect here, but someone will have to work on these bikes.
I'm not sure the SYM Mio is the one to beat. The Honda Metropolitan, which started the current American retro looking scooter trend back in '03 or so does 41-43 mph out of the box. My Ruckus did 41-42 mph stock. Just a different variator, roller weights, clutch spring and drive belt have noticeably improved acceleration and a mile or 2 more on the top end. Yamaha's C3 is also 40mph out the door and has disc brakes and fuel injection. The Japanese 50cc 4 strokes are really nicely engineered.

Like all things stock; engineering is a mixture of reliability, cost, efficiency and mpg. I could get a Zuma 50cc to scream, but it would still be a 2 smoke, sound like loud crap, require more maintenance and basically pollute like a beast.

And lots of people do already work on these little scooters. It just costs time and money. Head over to TotalRuckus.com to see some amazing stuff. Or, check out the MotoIQ's build up for an example of money answering your speed needs.

approachbears screwed with this post 11-07-2009 at 08:54 AM
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:31 AM   #53
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Well the LaVita does go for the Vespa-ish looks with the trailing link half side front suspension, I'm still a fan of telescopic suspension though even though it's not as retro looking. You do get more travel with less bulk and unsuspended weight. Let's hope the front suspension is engineered well enough to not be a service nightmare. You know that the Modscooters Lambretta has a "vintage" remake of the GP200 that is sourced from India. Metal bodied and using the same engine design from the early 70's, it got a fair write up in Scoot! But damn, it's over $4500 MSRP.

Also look at what SYM is trying with the Symba, I feel it's a great idea, but I'm not sure if it will financially pan out well for them despite the Symba being a nice quality product. The fact is there are Big 4 underbones available from the Western Pac Rim that are far better bikes and retail locally for less than the Symba. They also have bigger, more modern engines with niceties like front a rear discs, modern body design and EFI.

I do wish you folks well with this product.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:54 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhandmoto
True; point well-made.

Always figgered that this is responsive to the winked-at "open secret" of 49cc scoots: that in many places, there is some sort of "speed-barrier" requiring registration, tags, insurance, and an "M" endorsement on the licence of an operator of any bike capable of meeting or exceeding a specific stautory speed.

In my state, it's 35 mph. Get clocked above 35 (or is it "at 35"??? "Meet' or "Exceed"?? Cripes, I don't know..), and you get a variety of citations.

*********************************

This is just speculatin' on my part, 'course...
Well at our shop we had a strong attitude towards our customers getting their ME on their licenses and even taking the Team Oregon aptitude test.

It wasn't a requirement for a sale, but we encouraged it strongly. We cared enough about our customers that they had the skill sets to handle riding in urban and suburban traffic. So most of our 50 cc scooters were chosen for our sales line for their power and reliability. This meant that a lot of our sales went under the wrench to remove restriction spacers and (or) exhaust or inlet restrictions. We also did a couple performance mods on our customers Genuine Buddys and Black Cats, which was where, for just a simple echange of exhaust system, CVT weights, and springs, that you could see a bike that once had trouble getting above 33 mph, to push near 50 mph. But these were 2 strokes. The Sym Mio was nice in that it's restriction conversions were minimal, you realize that the Mio has a 11000 rpm CDI, it was actually quite potent.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:25 AM   #55
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I think the Italjet Velocifero preceeded the Metro by 5 yrs and the Yamaha Vino was released before Honda's in the styling dept.
I was a service mgr. at a Honda dealership when the Metro hit and while I liked the mechanical installments of a 3 valve head,electric H2O pump and phased starter, they were slow. I don't know what Honda has done to them recently but remember Battlescooter had about $800 in parts to get them to hit 40.
The early Honda's C102 & 110 (PUSHROD 50 CC) had the advantage of no emission restrictions and a gear box, as the CVT is great but still is a compromise through the RPM range.
You can make the 4T's faster but in the long run will give up engine life. If you are talking dropping from 40KM to 30KM, that may be acceptable for a scooters life. The FI is a big help but adds several hundred $ to the cost. Water cooling helps with the thermal dynamics which keep effeciency and emissions lower, too. Otherwise ,we all know what needs to be done, reduce reciprocating mass, stuff more air/fuel into the chamber and get a good burn and evacuate the exhaust quickly.It is one thing to start with a fresh design, about a million dollars total for an new engine, than to work with an existing, already amortised tooling. Then you start adding to the stress dept by increasing compression, shorter skirt pistons and higher duration cams you get your speed to the detriment of longivity.
The big boys can start the new projects as they have the funding and expect 10's of thousand's in annual sales to spread the cost on, something we can only dream of.
I will have to wait with everyone else to see what this 49cc will do, then evaluate what can be done reasonably. I'm sure someone will get aggressive in modifying it. I will have to assume that like Adly, they will reject my wish for a supercharged version, like the Peugeot.

The Adly 50cc did get the rejetting approved by the EPA last Nov. so anything made after Oct . 09 will have the new specs. Yes, it is not the easiest carb to access quickly, a true 30-40 minute job to replace, once you know what and where all the fastners are. They have heard my complaints about a removable helmet box for 5 yrs but say the retooling cost is not palatable to them at this time. The new angular models that we have not bought into yet do have the box removable with a few bolts.
Adly has the potential and quality of doing anything, as the have their own forgery, but the BOD seems to have a fear of being a leader in inovations. They need a more Westernized point of view in their marketing, my opinion I have told them before, they just had it so easy before building contract units for the likes of Can Am and Artic Cat. They seem to be listening more but still waiting for the results I know they can produce.

The Hammerhead guys have been much easier to work for as they are more assymulated into our marketing approch and understand the customer care concept. Like anyone, the bottom line is to make money but they realize retention is better than replacing customers. I'm sure it is not all blue sky with the dealers but, they have been more than fair in what they allow me to do with my dealings with customers. I don't win everytime but I've been married long enough to know when to pick your battles.

I am excited as a little schoolgirl to see the La Vita actually about to land and it will be interesting to see how it does in the current market conditions. I know it is close to what my old customers said they wanted with the real vintage style but modern drivetrain and fair priced

What can you tell me about the Indian Lambretta's? I thought Harry and Sonny told me they had access to the old SIL tooling but felt the dies were unusable. Are these Remans, like the LML VBB's were?
We have discussed a project like this with Lambretta USA, both at Adly and with me here, but I think they are waiting to see how sucessful we are. It would be great to see both old styles revitalized. Can we get the rights to remake Quadrophenia?

Thanks,
Paul
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:25 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bermshot
I think the Italjet Velocifero preceeded the Metro by 5 yrs and the Yamaha Vino was released before Honda's in the styling dept.
I was a service mgr. at a Honda dealership when the Metro hit and while I liked the mechanical installments of a 3 valve head,electric H2O pump and phased starter, they were slow. I don't know what Honda has done to them recently but remember Battlescooter had about $800 in parts to get them to hit 40.
The early Honda's C102 & 110 (PUSHROD 50 CC) had the advantage of no emission restrictions and a gear box, as the CVT is great but still is a compromise through the RPM range.
You can make the 4T's faster but in the long run will give up engine life. If you are talking dropping from 40KM to 30KM, that may be acceptable for a scooters life. The FI is a big help but adds several hundred $ to the cost. Water cooling helps with the thermal dynamics which keep effeciency and emissions lower, too. Otherwise ,we all know what needs to be done, reduce reciprocating mass, stuff more air/fuel into the chamber and get a good burn and evacuate the exhaust quickly.It is one thing to start with a fresh design, about a million dollars total for an new engine, than to work with an existing, already amortised tooling. Then you start adding to the stress dept by increasing compression, shorter skirt pistons and higher duration cams you get your speed to the detriment of longivity.
The big boys can start the new projects as they have the funding and expect 10's of thousand's in annual sales to spread the cost on, something we can only dream of....
Honda made some changes in the Ruckus/Zoomer/Met after '05, which really upped the top speed. They also dropped the MetII, which was the restricted version for moped license states that required 25-30mph limits. The Hondas really do hit 40+ mph stock these days, which is something I simply haven't seem from random Chinese 50's like Lance or its clone-mates. Yes, the Hondas are slow getting there compared to 2 smokes. But there are small mods (lots less than $800) that will significantly improve acceleration.

I'm not sure that FI really adds much as it used to as the Yamaha C3 is fuel injected and has basically the same MSRP as the Hondas. Same goes for water cooled, which are in the stock Yamahas and Hondas.

But I mostly disagree about your cost argument. Lots of small companies (several listed in those links I posted before) have made a small business of selling big bore kits and similar ilk for Honda's GET engines. Many are even doing it from here in the US without outsourcing overseas. The nice thing is that they are offering it affordably. These little players have been able to do the R&D themselves and not need, as you say, "millions" in start up costs. I simply feel that no matter how nice and clean some of those Chinese factories are; companies are contracting to build there simply to make profits from lack of regulation and pittance wages, not because they turn out top product.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:58 AM   #57
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Wel, not so sure: absolutely, the Mainland Chinese are using the old masses-of-underpaid-coolies manufacturing model: it works for them, and people usually don't kick success in the ass, whether it gets a little stale or not - like network TV, and "Rocky XVIII - The Rest-Home Rumble" movies.

And it ain't like the West - and Japan - aren't squeezing the Chinese low-budget labor market, either...What was that rumor about H-D moving wholesale to the Middle Kingdom again?

Think Bermnshot is correct when he speaks of the cultural differences in development, supprt infrastructure, and marketing, and that the Reds haven't quite caught-on to the Western expectations for innovation and support network as yet. But those same fights get fought in Detroit and Japan all the time, too: institutions don't like change, especially if it's gonna cost money, when staying where you are still works.

Taiwan has gotten there: the PDR will, too. They won't always be blind to the value of reliability and quality in stable company growth - Taiwan certainly paid attention. And development, assuming that the will is there, is frigteningly expensive, as the guy says...millions, even.
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:03 PM   #58
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Actually if you look at what Honda did with their early 50 step throughs the engine innovation was light years ahead. Yes they were pushrod engines, but they used extremely lightened valve trains, big valves and relatively long cam durations. The C102 had a 9000 rpm max. They also had a slightly longish stroke engine that gave good torque at lowish RPM.

But where are the innovations that have been available for sport bikes since the late 70's, water cooling, and 4 valve heads? If there was the same tuning level, stock out of the shipping box, that the Kawasaaki EX 500 had C.C. for C.C., we'd be seeing nearly 6 h.p. from a 12,000 rpm 49 cc engine. And it would have the longetivity because if engineered properly it wouldn't be much different from an old EX 500. And there's certainly a lot of those still running around.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:48 AM   #59
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Colors Confirmed

We Have Colors Confirmed For The First Shipment Of 150cc Lavitas : Black , Red ,champaign , And Retro-green. Eta Mid January Or Sooner
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:38 PM   #60
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Good to have new scoot info and a good tech discussion...but let's not get this punted to Vendors.

Thanks.
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