Better Than A Vespa ???

[techguy]

Originally Posted by Photog

Good to have new scoot info and a good tech discussion...but let's not get this punted to Vendors.

Thanks.

I agree. This thread reads a little like an advertisement for the LaVita. This gets under my skin in a forum designed for consumers to share their experiences and opinions. When their is a direct financial motivator, I bring my BS detector on high and I wonder how much I need to filter and ignore and how much is truth.

[Bermshot]

Originally Posted by techguy

I agree. This thread reads a little like an advertisement for the LaVita. This gets under my skin in a forum designed for consumers to share their experiences and opinions. When their is a direct financial motivator, I bring my BS detector on high and I wonder how much I need to filter and ignore and how much is truth.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I assumed this thread was about the La Vita and believe I have given a clear and accurate assessment of who I am and my opinions on our project. I don't think I have presented a sugar coated experience so far and being that the Road rep and I are about the only ones in the country that have been to the factory and ridden them so far I would hope our feedback would have some validity.
While we both do have an interest bias, I'm salaried without bonus's and he is a commissioned salesman but have yet to see anything but fact or our opinion disseminated with no infomercial hype, yet.

My offer was to give an honest inside look at what is happening, what may happen and did ask for valid input from this group. It is a real chance for someone's thoughts or idea to have an impact on some aspects of this scooter. If I can't give a straight answer, I'll tell you. I'm not always the best liked guy at the factories with my statements. I'm not married to any of them. I'm sure I don't swing the big member that I think I may at times but, I am closer to the source than most get a chance to in this business. I do like what I do and appreciate being involved in this side of the business and hopefully helping our dealers and consumers along the way.
If this is the incorrect forum I can clear off, if needed.
Thanks,
Paul[/FONT]

[Barnone]

I actually find this thread about the trials and tribulations of trying to develop a product for a saturated market quite interesting.

I hope it continues here in the scooter forum.

The OP was upfront about his motives.

[redhandmoto]

Originally Posted by Barnone

I actually find this thread about the trials and tribulations of trying to develop a product for a saturated market quite interesting.

I hope it continues here in the scooter forum.

The OP was upfront about his motives.

Yep, nice having insiders talking straightforwardly about the who-what-where-when-how. Been couple times in the recent past where product announcement details were unobtainable or subject to smoke-n-mirrors or vague assurance, generating endless frustrated speculation as to engine/component manufacture.

And if posts like this get bumped to, or belong in, 'Vendors', so what? The info and discussion will still be here somewhere. I appreciate what these fellas had to say - stick around, Paul. Thus endeth my two cents' worth.

[Photog]

It's just a friendly reminder to keep it from moving into an area that has me pruning stuff.

The introduction of any new scoot will provoke requests for information, and those closest to that info are frequently the importer, and for that reason I've usually allowed latitude so there's a good discussion that includes the horse's mouth.

Don't take it as a slap, just a nudge that means that the importer or dealer may need to separate the development/tech/info discussion and the more detailed sales info, which is why we have a handy dandy vendors forum so they have the latitude to speak more freely about this stuff.

The tech info exchanged is a good example of stuff that's absolutely appropriate.

Carry on.

[MOPED MEDIC]

Originally Posted by YamaGeek

Well the 4 stroke 50 to beat right now is the SYM Mio. IIRC which can do just under 40 mph. .

Yamaha C3 or Giggle will do 43 stock.

[MOPED MEDIC]

Originally Posted by approachbears

Adly's been in the US for awhile now and hasn't exactly taken the country by storm or built up a giant dealer network. So why exactly would anyone buy this instead of the well established Stella? (and its not for the 4 stroke engine since Stella's going to have one next year).

Because Stellas have a significant number of issues that make them mechanically unreliable and likely to seize and the 4T motor will be underpowered and a step in the wrong direction.

[approachbears]

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

Yamaha C3 or Giggle will do 43 stock.

Maybe 43 indicated on bike speedometers that, like all bike speedometers, are notoriously unreliable. 40-41 is more realistic based on real world riders. Check out the C3 specific forums sometime.

[approachbears]

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

Because Stellas have a significant number of issues that make them mechanically unreliable and likely to seize and the 4T motor will be underpowered and a step in the wrong direction.

You're not making sense. They seize because they're 2 strokes. The four stroke would be an entirely different motor. How can you know what it does since it isn't out yet or do you have some in with Genuine?

How exactly are they going to be underpowered? 150cc is the defacto standard for people who want to go 55mph or so. Vespa's all metal offerings do fine in 4 stroke/150cc. A million crappy Chinese GY6's are 4 stroke 150's.

As for "step in the wrong direction"...2 strokes are well on their way out. They pollute more, sound worse, and are less efficient. Their will always be 2 stroke nostalgia, but even Vespa gave up on them. There is no market for 2 stroke scooters in California and any company wanting to flourish in the US is foolish to ignore California.

[MOPED MEDIC]

Originally Posted by approachbears

You're not making sense. They seize because they're 2 strokes. The four stroke would be an entirely different motor. How can you know what it does since it isn't out yet or do you have some in with Genuine?

How exactly are they going to be underpowered? 150cc is the defacto standard for people who want to go 55mph or so. Vespa's all metal offerings do fine in 4 stroke/150cc. A million crappy Chinese GY6's are 4 stroke 150's.

As for "step in the wrong direction"...2 strokes are well on their way out. They pollute more, sound worse, and are less efficient. Their will always be 2 stroke nostalgia, but even Vespa gave up on them. There is no market for 2 stroke scooters in California and any company wanting to flourish in the US is foolish to ignore California.

No, they sieze because of what Genuine does to them to get them past the EPA. You need to understand how engines work before you can appreciate the benefits of 2 stroke power. They pollute more just like Diesels pollute more and that's why America has Prius Hybrids and the rest of the world has cars made by General Motors and Ford that get 60 mpg. They do produce more particulate, but less dangerous and toxic, byproduct than 4T motors. 2T engines are much more efficient and produce much more power per cc. They are lighter and have far fewer moving parts. The only reason 2T motors are on their way out in the US and Communist China is because of political pressure brought about by people who haven't a clue.

Despite the Liberals and Treehuggers who see the smoke and run screaming "Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My..." The 2T motor survives. In any economy driven by market forces, people ride 2T scooters. In civilized countries with a strong scooter culture, the biggest seller is not Grampa's Honda, but the Yamaha Minarelli motor in it's various forms.

The Yamaha Minarelli 2T horizontal motor is one of the most elegant examples of form follows function ever devised for a transportation device. Look at it, and then look at the crap Honda builds to make Grampa feel safe and comfortable, and tell me which one, from a design standpoint, is more elegant in it's simplicity and design.

For less than $500, you can have a 70cc speed kit, expansion chamber, rollers, jet, and clutch springs installed in any Minarelli 2T 50cc motor, and it will eat that old man's Ruckus all day long, no matter how much crap he buys off the internet or how many forums he posts on. And when the top end wears out in 10-20K miles, a trained monkey can put a new one on in half an hour. Might be a job for you there.

If you think a 2T motor with an expansion chamber going through it's paces sounds worse than the 4T Ruckus you owned that made you a scooter expert, you probably yell, "Get off my lawn," at the neighborhood kids a lot. Much like the sound of a well tuned Ducati or Moto Guzzi pounding out of a corner, there is something visceral, almost sexual, about the sound of a well chambered 2T motor as it goes through it's paces.

One thing I do agree with you about is that the Chinese 150 cc GY6 motors are crappy. That's what happens when the government bans 2T motors and then lets a committee tell all the manufacturers what to build and that they can't change it, even to make it better.

BTW, I own a Stella, and I can tell you that they are crap. They have as much in common with the Vespas of the 60's as they do with the 1978 PX, and the only way to make them right is to put a red dot between your eyes and say, "Do not rollerblade in my 7-11" every time they start to die. No matter how many statues of 8 legged elephant Gods I pray to, the thing still sucks. Given the spatial limitations of the design, there is no way even Lord Vishnu could install an efficient 4T layout.

I'm sorry for you that you don't understand 2T motors. They are a great part of the two wheel experience we need to appreciate before the hypocrites take them away. I bought my daughter of 12 a 2T Yamaha Vino, which came out in 2001, 2 years after the 2003 Honda Metropolitan that you said in another post started the retro scooter movement in the US, just so she would be able to say that she rode one when the Idiots legislate them out of existence in this country.

I took out the restrictors and that thing is fast as hell. Since you post so much in the Scooter forum, maybe you should buy one. And race her. I'll bet she could kick your ass through the corners.

[Roose Hurro]

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

BTW, I own a Stella, and I can tell you that they are crap. They have as much in common with the Vespas of the 60's as they do with the 1978 PX, and the only way to make them right is to put them in the wayback machine. Then they are pretty neat, even though they still suck. Given the spatial limitations of the design, there is no way to install an efficient 4T layout.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the 4T Stella is a reality... on the outside, it looks just like the 2T version. Only "under the hood" is it different (engine centered, tube-framed, diff swingarm, etc). Far as I've heard, it's just as efficient as/more efficient than the 2T version, as well.

Oh, here we go:

http://2strokebuzz.com/2009/05/07/th...tella-unveiled

http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic3517.html

[MOPED MEDIC]

Originally Posted by Roose Hurro

Sorry to disappoint you, but the 4T Stella is a reality... on the outside, it looks just like the 2T version. Only "under the hood" is it different (engine centered, tube-framed, diff swingarm, etc). Far as I've heard, it's just as efficient as/more efficient than the 2T version, as well.

Oh, here we go:

http://2strokebuzz.com/2009/05/07/th...tella-unveiled

http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic3517.html

Sounds like a Primavera. When I had an Opel GT and took it in to get serviced, one of the mechanics told me that the biggest problem with the car was that the company didn't think about the mechanics when they built it. You could literally rebuild the Vespa largeframe engine on the side of the road using the factory toolkit. I wonder how easy this thing will be to service.

[Roose Hurro]

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

Sounds like a Primavera. When I had an Opel GT and took it in to get serviced, one of the mechanics told me that the biggest problem with the car was that the company didn't think about the mechanics when they built it. You could literally rebuild the Vespa largeframe engine on the side of the road using the factory toolkit. I wonder how easy this thing will be to service.

It will still have the removable side panels, so it should be easier to service than a modern Vespa.

[approachbears]

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

No, they sieze because of what Genuine does to them to get them past the EPA. You need to understand how engines work before you can appreciate the benefits of 2 stroke power. They pollute more just like Diesels pollute more and that's why America has Prius Hybrids and the rest of the world has cars made by General Motors and Ford that get 60 mpg. They do produce more particulate, but less dangerous and toxic, byproduct than 4T motors. 2T engines are much more efficient and produce much more power per cc. They are lighter and have far fewer moving parts. The only reason 2T motors are on their way out in the US and Communist China is because of political pressure brought about by people who haven't a clue...

You are are a whiner. But don't bother letting the truth get in the way of your rant or anything. You claimed that the Genuine 4 stroke seizes like a 2 stroke and nothing you subsequently said offers any evidence of it. You're still spewing bullshit off the top of your head. You've apparently never seen the new Genuine 4 stroke and are speaking of things you know nothing about.

Also, efficiency can be defined in different ways. Even though they are sometimes "lighter" and "have fewer parts", they regularly get worse mileage. Plus, you need to calculate the oil use into the equation. Yes, its not a huge amount, but nothing is when comparing scooters.

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

Despite the Liberals and Treehuggers who see the smoke and run screaming "Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My..." The 2T motor survives. In any economy driven by market forces, people ride 2T scooters. In civilized countries with a strong scooter culture, the biggest seller is not Grampa's Honda, but the Yamaha Minarelli motor in it's various forms...

"Economy driven by market forces" and "civilized countries" are red herrings. Which countries do you speak of? Somalia, the free market dream land since there is no functioning government to hinder the "free market" in any way, is far from "civilized" nor is it a good place for scooters.

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

...The Yamaha Minarelli 2T horizontal motor is one of the most elegant examples of form follows function ever devised for a transportation device. Look at it, and then look at the crap Honda builds to make Grampa feel safe and comfortable, and tell me which one, from a design standpoint, is more elegant in it's simplicity and design.

For less than $500, you can have a 70cc speed kit, expansion chamber, rollers, jet, and clutch springs installed in any Minarelli 2T 50cc motor, and it will eat that old man's Ruckus all day long, no matter how much crap he buys off the internet or how many forums he posts on. And when the top end wears out in 10-20K miles, a trained monkey can put a new one on in half an hour. Might be a job for you there...

Elegance has nothing to do with the 2 stroke's future. The Studebaker Avanti was a pinnacle of elegance as was the Vincent Black Shadow, but I'm not foolish enough to think that either is the future of automotive or motorcycle engineering.

As the numerous Honda Get motor customizer's prove, elegance is also found in scooter complexity. I don't really care that a 70cc scooter or moped is faster than a 50cc one. Of course it is. I don't need to race you to find that out. If it wasn't faster, then it probably has real things wrong with it.

Step back from your rant a little bit. I like messing and hearing about others messing with 50cc scooters because I like seeing them pushed to the limits that go beyond speed. I'd just go buy a bigger scooter if I simply wanted fast. I sold a perfectly good motorcycle to buy a 50cc scooter for a reason. I don't want to personally race you--both because its not the standard I use to judge scooters and because you seem like an odious person I don't want to meet in person.

But you're letting your bias show with your seemingly irrational hatred of Honda's. You are the same guy who just yesterday suggested on this site that someone buy an Chinese E-ton Beamer instead of a Honda Metropolitan because you thought it a superior machine. You are already a moped and scooter mechanic and your job insult falls pretty flat...apparently you are already, in your own words, "a trained monkey". Its sad you think so little of your chosen profession.

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

...If you think a 2T motor with an expansion chamber going through it's paces sounds worse than the 4T Ruckus you owned that made you a scooter expert, you probably yell, "Get off my lawn," at the neighborhood kids a lot. Much like the sound of a well tuned Ducati or Moto Guzzi pounding out of a corner, there is something visceral, almost sexual, about the sound of a well chambered 2T motor as it goes through it's paces....

Your comparison fails. It fails not just because you're apparently dumb enough to argue taste, but because you need to identify which 2 stroke Ducati's or Moto Guzzi's you're referring to. The only current Ducati 2 stroke available in the US I know of is the Malaguti-built, 50cc Ducati-branded scooter.

I generally like the sound of the Ducati's and Moto Guzzi's I've ridden. They were all 4 stroke motorcycles and sounded nothing like a 2 stroke motorcycle and certainly not a 2 stroke scooter 1/10th their size. They had a throatier grumble instead of an aspirated and buzzing shriek. The ST3 sounded wonderful compared to most sport bikes. Of course, the one Ducati with straight pipes didn't sound all that good. It was, to use your word, quite "inelegant" in its sexuality. I could best compare it to a prostitute on a random street corner in a town like Memphis. Sure it was sexual, but it wasn't exactly pleasurable beyond the brute display.

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

...BTW, I own a Stella, and I can tell you that they are crap. They have as much in common with the Vespas of the 60's as they do with the 1978 PX, and the only way to make them right is to put a red dot between your eyes and say, "Do not rollerblade in my 7-11" every time they start to die. No matter how many statues of 8 legged elephant Gods I pray to, the thing still sucks. Given the spatial limitations of the design, there is no way even Lord Vishnu could install an efficient 4T layout...

You bought a Stella because you expected it to be reliable? Didn't you figure out that Stella's are for nostalgia? Sure, they're better than the old PX's, but people who buy them know they're getting a nostalgic machine with requisite maintenance issues compared to a modern 4 stroke. I guess you let your undying love for 2 strokes get the best of you.

Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC

...I took out the restrictors and that thing is fast as hell. Since you post so much in the Scooter forum, maybe you should buy one. And race her. I'll bet she could kick your ass through the corners.

Again, I have no desire to race you. I'm perfectly capable of buying any scooter that's out there and could simply buy some cc's for speed if I cared about that. However, I'm also discerning enough to not take your advice about what to buy.

[MOPED MEDIC]

Originally Posted by approachbears

"Economy driven by market forces" and "civilized countries" are red herrings. Which countries do you speak of? Somalia, the free market dream land since there is no functioning government to hinder the "free market" in any way, is far from "civilized" nor is it a good place for scooters.

But you're letting your bias show with your seemingly irrational hatred of Honda's. You are the same guy who just yesterday suggested on this site that someone buy an Chinese E-ton Beamer instead of a Honda Metropolitan because you thought it a superior machine.
I'm perfectly capable of buying any scooter that's out there and could simply buy some cc's for speed if I cared about that.

The countries that I was thinking about are mostly in places like Europe, South America, and Asia, where there is a thriving performance scooter culture, and strict emission controls.

Where in China is the Beamer made? I thought it is made in Taiwan, where Yamaha makes scooters. Check before you post.

I don't hate hondas, I merely think they are overpriced and poorly engineered compared to other Scooters on the market. They have become the Buick of the 2 wheel market, safe and vanilla.

Somehow I doubt that last one. You tend to hear it when it's not true.