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Old 02-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #826
levain
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Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
So, after many loaves of the basic no-knead bread, I've decided to give a sourdough starter a try....................... Will doing the same 12-18 hr initial fermentation over-do it?
totally different animal. The reason the no knead works is because there is so little yeast in it. That is what allows to dough to ferment for so long without over fermenting. You can do that with sourdough, but it needs tweaking. Much like in the noknead where there is very little yeast, the same can be applied to sourdough. It is roughly proportional, so if a recipe calls for 100grams sourdough starter with a 2 hr. bulk., you could drop that to 50g for 4 hrs., 25g, for 8hrs. etc. I wouldn't recommend it, but theoretically, it'll work. There's not really much point though. You'd be better off having the sourdough (what the french and most Americans call Levain) ferment for 8-12hrs. then make bread with that.

Jeffrey Hamelman has a new edition of his book out. I haven't seen it yet, but the first edition is really great. That is probably the best book out currently on making bread. Besides, Jeffrey is a friend, and I'd like to see all you FF's line his pockets
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:57 PM   #827
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There is alot of good information here about Sourdough starters, this is what my wife refers to alot.

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:57 PM   #828
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Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
So, after many loaves of the basic no-knead bread, I've decided to give a sourdough starter a try. I've started the starter, so based on my reading it will be ready to use in about a week.
I love the way the bread comes out using the dutch oven method of baking, and I'd like to keep baking that way- what sort of schedule works well for a starter vs the normal dry yeast method? Will doing the same 12-18 hr initial fermentation over-do it?
Any recipes you like?
Any suggestions on how to meld the techniques is appreciated.

Thanks!
With all due respect to Jim (really, I mean it)
Try it. It depends on your sourdough. Most sourdoughs are not as active as a well maintained bakery's sourdough starter.

Second, lower the temperature before you try anything else (again, IMHO). I'd follow the original recipe, but try to get your mix at 60 degrees, and let it rise in a 60 degree area, if you can. If you have a really healthy, active starter, either use a bit less starter or reduce the temp further.

I tried the no-knead, did an 18 hour rise, starting with about 5 oz of sourdough starter, somewhere around 62 degrees. It worked well, that was a tasty loaf of bread.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:40 PM   #829
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This is a wonderful thread for beginning home-bakers! I tried the no-knead method the 1st try last night and I got spectacular and wonderful bread! This is the very first time I ever baked anything in my life. Seems this method is very forgiving as I started with a wet sloppy dough that was a challenge to handle. It tended to run all over the place, stick to everything, and go right through my fingers when transferring onto the pot. A towel and a lot of flour helped keep it together. I used simple ceramic pots with covers. Fleischmanns Active dry yeast made in Canada and supermarket All-purpose flour. 24hrs fermentation. I can suggest to anyone contemplating this: just go ahead and do it. There are techniques that can only be learned by trying (and making mistakes).

One thing I noticed is that my finished bread is heavier by weight compared to a similar size cut of commercial bread. However I liked it this way, its unlike common light bread. Maybe because my baking time was only 15 minutes with the lid closed. Btw, I experimented a bit on the fermentation. One dough fermented at 60F and the other approx 5F warmer. The former turned out lighter as can be seen in the photos.



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Old 02-12-2013, 05:00 AM   #830
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With all due respect to Jim (really, I mean it)
Try it. It depends on your sourdough. Most sourdoughs are not as active as a well maintained bakery's sourdough starter.

Second, lower the temperature before you try anything else (again, IMHO). I'd follow the original recipe, but try to get your mix at 60 degrees, and let it rise in a 60 degree area, if you can. If you have a really healthy, active starter, either use a bit less starter or reduce the temp further.

I tried the no-knead, did an 18 hour rise, starting with about 5 oz of sourdough starter, somewhere around 62 degrees. It worked well, that was a tasty loaf of bread.

You hit on a major point which contributes greatly to satisfactory sourdough results. A "well maintained starter", but let's change the wording a bit to " a well developed starter". Reason is to only point out that anyone can do it - culture needn't have been passed down from your Klondiker great great grandfather - in fact I'd pass on that, but it does make great advertising copy.
Developing involves increasing the potency (meaning aggressiveness to grow) of your culture. A well developed sourdough culture can be amazingly potent.
How to do it is simple, but for another post.

Edit - developing also matures flavor, but in context of the question, I assume we are discussing time or activity intervals. Sort of like suspension tuning, everything is interrelated. Edit

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Old 02-12-2013, 05:13 AM   #831
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How to do it is simple, but for another post.

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2 c. flour
2 c. water
1 package of active dry.

A wild yeast starter's not much more difficult.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:21 AM   #832
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Dug out the bread machine and stayed up 'til 1:30 last night to have some warm french bread and butter. mmmmmmm...................
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:39 AM   #833
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A wild yeast starter's not much more difficult.
For us its not since we maintain both of ours 2xday 364 days/year. I could see it as a challenge for the home baker.

As Bok alluded to it needs to be maintained properly for consistent results. We have 2 days that we close in the year. During that, our starters spend about 36 hrs in a fridge rather than being on their normal 2x/day refreshment schedule. Once we're back into our routine, it still takes a day or two for things to level off again. It is a very simple process of propogating from one build to the next, but since it relies on previous refreshments it can get a little thrown off. Then again, we don't have the luxury of waiting or starting early. We're on a schedule, but that is also my #1 rule in bread baking; the baker is in charge the of the dough. not the other way around. manipulation is what we do, and learning how to manipulate it is the most important ingredient in a loaf of bread.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:42 AM   #834
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2 c. flour
2 c. water
1 package of active dry.
This ratio would work, but its not recommended. As mentioned above, the reason the no knead produces good bread is the long fermentation. The long fermentation is achieved by minimal yeast. I'm guessing a package of yeast is 11grams? That is a TON of yeast! If its half that its still a TON of yeast! I would estimate the above recipe would be ready to use in 1.5-2hrs. temp. dependent. At that point, you're raising bread, not fermenting wheat.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:44 AM   #835
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Originally Posted by Xeraux View Post


2 c. flour
2 c. water
1 package of active dry.

A wild yeast starter's not much more difficult.


Uhhhh, ummm - have to agree to disagree. That's okay, the real goal is to bake bread which pleases one's palate - any process or principle which gets you where you want to go is okay.
I find that both yeast and wild cultures can be greatly modified through development. ymmv

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Old 02-12-2013, 06:43 AM   #836
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I'm guessing a package of yeast is 11grams? That is a TON of yeast! If its half that its still a TON of yeast!

.
Usually it's 7-8 grams, based on manufacturer.

All the recipes I found, not saying that they're the best, just that they're the ones I ran into, ask for more yeast than you're suggesting. I'll give it a try the other way, curious of the result.

Last batch, yesterday evening/night, were some small loafs/big buns of olive bread...tasty
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:45 AM   #837
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congrats...and be warned- it's addictive

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Old 02-12-2013, 07:30 AM   #838
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Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
So, after many loaves of the basic no-knead bread, I've decided to give a sourdough starter a try. I've started the starter, so based on my reading it will be ready to use in about a week.
I love the way the bread comes out using the dutch oven method of baking, and I'd like to keep baking that way- what sort of schedule works well for a starter vs the normal dry yeast method? Will doing the same 12-18 hr initial fermentation over-do it?
Any recipes you like?
Any suggestions on how to meld the techniques is appreciated.

Thanks!

I'm trying to get a sourdough starter going myself. It's just new, only 2 days, no action yet. But I did find a recipe for Sourdough No Knead bread. I have not tried this recipe yet, so I can't say if it's good or not, but here it is:
http://www.breadtopia.com/sourdough-no-knead-method/
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:31 AM   #839
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Usually it's 7-8 grams, based on manufacturer.

All the recipes I found, not saying that they're the best, just that they're the ones I ran into, ask for more yeast than you're suggesting. I'll give it a try the other way, curious of the result.

Last batch, yesterday evening/night, were some small loafs/big buns of olive bread...tasty
cheers,
Ko
Yes - but the bulk of the general public wants instant gratification. Our direction kinda runs contrary to modern cooking marketing.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:32 AM   #840
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Yes - but the bulk of the general public wants instant gratification. Our direction kinda runs contrary to modern cooking marketing.

Bokrijder

The "bulk of the general public" does things like look up "sour dough starter" on the internet and then follows a recipe similar to the one I posted that's featured on many, many recipe sites as well as various bread forums. It has more to do with what information is readily at hand and less to do with "instant gratification" and "marketing".

Quite frankly, you can shove your smug up your ass.
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