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Old 02-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #841
bomber60015
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I've got some home-made starter that's about 30 years old --

It gets used approxiamtely weekly, and, when it is, it seems fine . . . if I put it in the fridge for months and don't bake (like some summers), it'll take a number of feedings or loaves to bounce back . . . .

I'd love to hear more about maintaining or developing the starter (though the arguing is making me feel just a touch superior ;-} )
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:19 PM   #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber60015 View Post
I've got some home-made starter that's about 30 years old --

It gets used approxiamtely weekly, and, when it is, it seems fine . . . if I put it in the fridge for months and don't bake (like some summers), it'll take a number of feedings or loaves to bounce back . . . .

I'd love to hear more about maintaining or developing the starter (though the arguing is making me feel just a touch superior ;-} )
It sounds like you're doing everything you should be doing. The best thing you can do is make more bread, but that is difficult for obvious reasons. Unless you don't like your bread, I wouldn't change a thing
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:28 PM   #843
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I like it, but, more importantly, my audience likes it . . . . .

good to know, though -- thanks for the backup!
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:37 PM   #844
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warning. a little geeky

Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post
This ratio would work, but its not recommended. As mentioned above, the reason the no knead produces good bread is the long fermentation. The long fermentation is achieved by minimal yeast. I'm guessing a package of yeast is 11grams? That is a TON of yeast! If its half that its still a TON of yeast! I would estimate the above recipe would be ready to use in 1.5-2hrs. temp. dependent. At that point, you're raising bread, not fermenting wheat.
Alright, I'm gonna eat my words a little bit here. Sorry for misleading anyone.

I think in what are called bakers percentages where every ingredient is a percentage of the total flour in a formula, which is always 100%. I also think in weight, specifically metric, so when I see things in cups, my little brain doesn't know what to do with it

I just got to the bakery. After spending 20 min. looking for a 1 cup measure, I thought I'd break this down. I weighed 4 different flours in my bakery. Of course, they all weighed different, which is precisely why everyone of you needs to invest in a scale!

The recipe Xeraux quoted was:
2 cups flour
2 cups water
1 packet dry yeast-looks like we can assume a packet is 7g per Ko

Flour A-330g
B-305g
C-313g
D-298g

Water 470g
Dry yeast 7g

Whew! Now, I can do something with this!

Flour C was our standard AP flour that we use for all of our breads. Using that as 100%, here's what we have:

Flour 100%
Water 150%(!)
Yeast .016%

Now, that is actually, not very much yeast at all, which makes me happy! The water is fine, but its out of wack. I've never seen a starter, or what we call a pre-ferment, with that much water. 125% is common for liquid levain, but yeasted? Never seen that. There are 1,000,325 ways to make a loaf of bread though, so knock yourself out.

To complicate matters more, we use fresh yeast. The conversion from dry to fresh is roughly 1:3, so if I was to use this in bakery, it'd be .048% yeast. Just to give an idea, a poolish at 100% water, or equal parts water:flour by WEIGHT would use .1% yeast for a 12-14hr. fermentation at 70F.

A word about temperature. It is a huge factor, esp. as you start working with wetter doughs. I would now estimate the original 2 cup recipe to go around 3 hrs. at 70F. much warmer, and it'll be ready in 2 hrs. That is due mostly to just how wet it is. We can control variables in the process with temperature, hydration and development.

Confused?

NOW, someone out there weigh out 1/4 t of dry yeast so we can figure out the percentages on the No Knead. Then, you can start really tweaking it to fit into your lifestyle.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:56 PM   #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeraux View Post

Quite frankly, you can shove your smug up your ass.

Whoa --- hmmmm, Jo mama attitude joins bread building - not impressed !!!

Poster was inquiring and making a generalization that many bread recipes spec. a large amount of yeast, which they do. Suggested a reason why, nothing more.
Had nothing to do with your starter suggestion.

No further comment - no intention of poking thin skin.

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Old 02-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #846
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This is very good stuff indeed.

Thank you.

I've been trying to reconstruct the recipe from my great grandmother for what she called Swedish Rye Rolls. They used a Rye-Graham flour. I've messed with the mix ratio for the rye and graham flours and have it about figured out. The wheat flour part is tougher.
The recipe copies I have, though not here are I think three different copies all somewhat different.
All measured in cups and whatnot. When I re-started baking these I converted the cups to weight but did not know of this ratio you've used here. That is very helpful.
Once I have access to the recipes again.
By summer I'll maybe get back home and get to bake again. By then I'll have some new tweaks to try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post
Alright, I'm gonna eat my words a little bit here. Sorry for misleading anyone.

I think in what are called bakers percentages where every ingredient is a percentage of the total flour in a formula, which is always 100%. I also think in weight, specifically metric, so when I see things in cups, my little brain doesn't know what to do with it

I just got to the bakery. After spending 20 min. looking for a 1 cup measure, I thought I'd break this down. I weighed 4 different flours in my bakery. Of course, they all weighed different, which is precisely why everyone of you needs to invest in a scale!

The recipe Xeraux quoted was:
2 cups flour
2 cups water
1 packet dry yeast-looks like we can assume a packet is 7g per Ko

Flour A-330g
B-305g
C-313g
D-298g

Water 470g
Dry yeast 7g

Whew! Now, I can do something with this!

Flour C was our standard AP flour that we use for all of our breads. Using that as 100%, here's what we have:

Flour 100%
Water 150%(!)
Yeast .016%

Now, that is actually, not very much yeast at all, which makes me happy! The water is fine, but its out of wack. I've never seen a starter, or what we call a pre-ferment, with that much water. 125% is common for liquid levain, but yeasted? Never seen that. There are 1,000,325 ways to make a loaf of bread though, so knock yourself out.

To complicate matters more, we use fresh yeast. The conversion from dry to fresh is roughly 1:3, so if I was to use this in bakery, it'd be .048% yeast. Just to give an idea, a poolish at 100% water, or equal parts water:flour by WEIGHT would use .1% yeast for a 12-14hr. fermentation at 70F.

A word about temperature. It is a huge factor, esp. as you start working with wetter doughs. I would now estimate the original 2 cup recipe to go around 3 hrs. at 70F. much warmer, and it'll be ready in 2 hrs. That is due mostly to just how wet it is. We can control variables in the process with temperature, hydration and development.

Confused?

NOW, someone out there weigh out 1/4 t of dry yeast so we can figure out the percentages on the No Knead. Then, you can start really tweaking it to fit into your lifestyle.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:25 PM   #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post

I think in what are called bakers percentages where every ingredient is a percentage of the total flour in a formula, which is always 100%. I also think in weight, specifically metric, so when I see things in cups, my little brain doesn't know what to do with it

Confused?

.
Good to see that you're using metric- although I got real good at conversions by now That was one of the reasons I use European recipes, although it bugs me that I don't know if I'm using the right type of flour...

Confused not here- just ticked at how much I don't know about bread making. Bokrijder was as helpful as you at making things difficult- introduced me to new types of yeast (probably not the right terms but I know what I'm talking about ).

Keep the info coming guys, confusing or not.

Ko
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:28 PM   #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokrijder View Post
Whoa --- hmmmm, Jo mama attitude joins bread building - not impressed !!!

Poster was inquiring and making a generalization that many bread recipes spec. a large amount of yeast, which they do. Suggested a reason why, nothing more.
Had nothing to do with your starter suggestion.

No further comment - no intention of poking thin skin.

Bokrijder
"Instant gratification"? "Modern cooking marketing"? Jo Momma attitude, indeed. Not impressed.


Oh. Wait.

I better "sign" this post or you won't know who authored it.


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Old 02-12-2013, 02:30 PM   #849
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Bakers Percentage

Quick google gave me a write up from Jeffrey Hamelman. You know, the guy that has the book The one you should buy

Here ya go. It should get everyone going. This is not a perfect system, but it does work, and it gives bakers a common language internationally. No clue who came up with it or when.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:42 PM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post
NOW, someone out there weigh out 1/4 t of dry yeast so we can figure out the percentages on the No Knead. Then, you can start really tweaking it to fit into your lifestyle.
screw work, this is productive

According to these guys , a teaspoon is a third of a spoon, which contains 14.15gr, hence a 1/4 teaspoon is 1.19gr...Question is, how the heck does one accurately measure that in a home environment?

Ko
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:51 PM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko View Post
screw work, this is productive

According to these guys , a teaspoon is a third of a spoon, which contains 14.15gr, hence a 1/4 teaspoon is 1.19gr...Question is, how the heck does one accurately measure that in a home environment?

Ko
Hey I'm at the bakery. We're talking bread. This is work!

In that case, maybe the 1/4t is pretty good. Seems you could almost eyeball it. That recipe calls for 3cups flour (470g), so that is .012% fresh yeast. Not much at all, and it is precisely why the no knead works. Very long fermentation that gives strength, color, texture, flavor etc. However its still what we would call a straight dough. If we used a poolish at 12 hrs., in the final dough with no additional yeast, then fermented that for 12 hrs. it would probably make for a very interesting bread. I would guess around 5% poolish in the final dough then.

Someone get on it. Take pictures along the way
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:36 PM   #852
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Just to throw in another way to do it... I was interested in how the percentages came out after reading here. I wanted to try a fairly wet dough, so I started with this breakdown:

Flour: 100%
Water: 75%
Salt: 2%
Yeast: 1%

For convenience I backed out the percentage of flour based on one packet of yeast and came up with this:

Flour: 25 oz
Water: 18.75 oz
Salt: 0.5 oz
Yeast: 0.25 oz (one packet)

Or in grams:

Flour: 700 g
Water: 532 g
Salt: 14 g
Yeast: 7 g (same packet - the conversions just aren't perfect to many decimal places)

And I do have a kitchen scale that reads in both units.

Where I seem to run into problems is dealing with that wet dough. The biggest problem is transferring it from anything I have it proofing on into the oven. It always seems to wet out and stick to whatever it has been sitting on. Since it is sticky I end up collapsing a lot of the structure in the process of getting it onto the stone in the oven. Any tips?
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:50 PM   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardstick View Post
Just to throw in another way to do it... I was interested in how the percentages came out after reading here.
HEY! I WROTE THAT ARTICLE

Completely forgot about that. I worked at Artisan 1996-2000 when I moved to RI.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:52 PM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardstick View Post

Where I seem to run into problems is dealing with that wet dough. The biggest problem is transferring it from anything I have it proofing on into the oven. It always seems to wet out and stick to whatever it has been sitting on. Since it is sticky I end up collapsing a lot of the structure in the process of getting it onto the stone in the oven. Any tips?
Are you flouring whatever you're proofing it on? You could try mixing a little rice flour into that flour, and/or not covering it for a bit before moving it. that will allow it to dry out a touch. You don't want a crust forming on the proofing dough. If you can just move your hand over the top without it sticking, its about as dry as you want it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:28 PM   #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post
HEY! I WROTE THAT ARTICLE

Completely forgot about that. I worked at Artisan 1996-2000 when I moved to RI.
Nice! I think I ran across it in this thread before. I don't know if you pointed out that you wrote it though. The circle of bread...


Quote:
Originally Posted by levain View Post
Are you flouring whatever you're proofing it on? You could try mixing a little rice flour into that flour, and/or not covering it for a bit before moving it. that will allow it to dry out a touch. You don't want a crust forming on the proofing dough. If you can just move your hand over the top without it sticking, its about as dry as you want it.
I do flour what I proof on. I have tried proofing on plastic and glass cutting boards. Last time I tried it with a cotton towel with a LOT of flour on it. It still stuck. It wetted right through the flour and stuck to the cotton. I have been covering the dough throughout though. I'll try letting it skin over next time.
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