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Old 01-05-2012, 10:10 PM   #1186
emerson.biguns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilslamer
Couldn't this be done with an Android app for a smartphone, etc.?
Tim,

Another inmate is working on something similar that I have been helping in the hardware department. I've wanted to produce a digital roadbook device for a while, but am unfamiliar with details and nuances of what the market requires. I think Craftycoder's app could be modified to fill the gap as a training device as you have mentioned. But I'm interested in a solution similar to what Hogwild is speaking of.

Here are the innards that adapted from Craftycoder's prototyping with Arduino components LINKY. Another LINKY.

And here is the tripmaster device connected to the phone LINKY.

I think a hardened phone like the Casio Commando would be a great option with the weak link being to USB connection to the phone being a chink in the phones water/dust proof armor.

The tripmaster will also have a GPS module option for feeding position data to tablets that are non-GPS enabled.

The Android phone app is pretty handy.


It wouldn't take much to assemble the components for a "consolidated" digital device for rally navigation. The e-ink displays would be ideal for displaying roadbook data. I wonder how long tradition will prevent modern technology from replacing the cutting, taping and highlighting roadbooks?



Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:28 PM   #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson.biguns View Post
Tim,



It wouldn't take much to assemble the components for a "consolidated" digital device for rally navigation. The e-ink displays would be ideal for displaying roadbook data. I wonder how long tradition will prevent modern technology from replacing the cutting, taping and highlighting roadbooks?



Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.

Just a comment, it's a lot harder than it looks to get electronics ultra reliable in that environment. Everything has to be over designed and it needs the crap tested out of it. (Think shaker tables and temperature /humidity cabinets).
It's not just heat, water condensing inside when the temp drops below zero when the sun sets will also kill electronics quickly.
You also have to design to run connected to an electrical system with no filtering, +/- 200v spikes aren't unknown on automotive power systems when things go wrong.

The roadbooks are still used because they use really simple components and mostly work, motors are pretty tough ;) . Luck getting anything like an off the shelf phone/netbook/tablet to survive.

It is doable, but you'll probably have to roll your own from the ground up. All the bits are available now at least.

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Old 01-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #1188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterW View Post
Just a comment, it's a lot harder than it looks to get electronics ultra reliable in that environment. Everything has to be over designed and it needs the crap tested out of it. ...

It is doable, but you'll probably have to roll your own from the ground up. All the bits are available now at least.

Pete

Panasonic just launched their Android Toughbooks:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/to...let-specs.asp#

Expect any of them to cost a few thousand. Assuming they would withstand the abuse of an off-road handlebar mount, everything you would run on them would have to be bug proof.

The Trippy thing is being used by the assistance Dakar teams, but I don't believe will see complex electronic roadbooks on races like Rallye Raids in the near future. JMHO
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:19 AM   #1189
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It appears as there is some (small) amount of interest. Maybe it is worh pursuing such a project after all. The toughest task is finding an approprate LCD that will handle strong vibrations and not crack, plus it must be heat proof. Some of the guys that have already run the ERTF GPS before (Matt ) will know that the contrast will drastically change with warmer weather, making the LCD near unreadable. Direct sunlight readability (even when not really hot) is another concern. Graphics LCD don't really have the best properties for these matters, but maybe something new has come out recently?

It shouldn't be a problem to make something that shows your COG (course over ground) and an arrow when within a selectable radius of the waypoint. Stuff like a roadbook function is way too complicated, get a Tripy for that instead! Perhaps the casing of the unit can be made to exactly fit the now obsolete ERTF GPS holder...

As for running a tablet PC, I wouldn't do that. Who knows how "rallye" proof they are? Plus the touchscreen interface is useless with gloves on. Anyway, who want a 10" LD infront of them.

I'll see what I can cook up in my free time
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:30 AM   #1190
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Hi Tony How is Mr Schattat senior!
Don't think it's much help but Boundsy took this with him when he rode his bike up Everest last year!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...9133365&type=3
http://www.blackdeserttraining.com


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Old 01-06-2012, 07:21 AM   #1191
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I was waiting for you to chime in. Nice!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson.biguns View Post
Tim,

Another inmate is working on something similar that I have been helping in the hardware department. I've wanted to produce a digital roadbook device for a while, but am unfamiliar with details and nuances of what the market requires. I think Craftycoder's app could be modified to fill the gap as a training device as you have mentioned. But I'm interested in a solution similar to what Hogwild is speaking of.

Here are the innards that adapted from Craftycoder's prototyping with Arduino components LINKY. Another LINKY.

And here is the tripmaster device connected to the phone LINKY.

I think a hardened phone like the Casio Commando would be a great option with the weak link being to USB connection to the phone being a chink in the phones water/dust proof armor.

The tripmaster will also have a GPS module option for feeding position data to tablets that are non-GPS enabled.

The Android phone app is pretty handy.


It wouldn't take much to assemble the components for a "consolidated" digital device for rally navigation. The e-ink displays would be ideal for displaying roadbook data. I wonder how long tradition will prevent modern technology from replacing the cutting, taping and highlighting roadbooks?



Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:26 AM   #1192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson.biguns View Post
Tim,

Another inmate is working on something similar that I have been helping in the hardware department. I've wanted to produce a digital roadbook device for a while, but am unfamiliar with details and nuances of what the market requires. I think Craftycoder's app could be modified to fill the gap as a training device as you have mentioned. But I'm interested in a solution similar to what Hogwild is speaking of.

Here are the innards that adapted from Craftycoder's prototyping with Arduino components LINKY. Another LINKY.

And here is the tripmaster device connected to the phone LINKY.

I think a hardened phone like the Casio Commando would be a great option with the weak link being to USB connection to the phone being a chink in the phones water/dust proof armor.

The tripmaster will also have a GPS module option for feeding position data to tablets that are non-GPS enabled.

The Android phone app is pretty handy.


It wouldn't take much to assemble the components for a "consolidated" digital device for rally navigation. The e-ink displays would be ideal for displaying roadbook data. I wonder how long tradition will prevent modern technology from replacing the cutting, taping and highlighting roadbooks?



Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.
Nice, looks great

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrier View Post
Hi Tony How is Mr Schattat senior!
Don't think it's much help but Boundsy took this with him when he rode his bike up Everest last year!

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...9133365&type=3
http://www.blackdeserttraining.com
Hiya Barrie!
Herr Schattat is doing good, he's in Nouakchott in Mauritania somewhere for the time being

You plan on planting that laptop on your bike as an entire cockpit replacement?
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:03 AM   #1193
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Originally Posted by schattat View Post

You plan on planting that laptop on your bike as an entire cockpit replacement?
Yeah! Just sit there on my Renazco playing the ASO 'Virtual Rally Game'! As long as I have WiFi!
http://www.virtualrallygame.com/
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:52 AM   #1194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson.biguns View Post
I've wanted to produce a digital roadbook device for a while, but am unfamiliar with details and nuances of what the market requires. I think Craftycoder's app could be modified to fill the gap as a training device as you have mentioned. But I'm interested in a solution similar to what Hogwild is speaking of.
What I'm aiming for might be different than what you're thinking. Mine will have no screen (just LEDs). My original focus was to solve the hazard problem of bikes and cars on the same course at the same time. It was motivated by bikes getting run over by cars in Baja racing (and to some degree the same problem in Dakar). As things progressed I found a bunch of other things I could do to aid in safety, race management, and some really cool new stuff I won't talk about. But I'm staying away from the whole screen issue. For Baja racing, currently available GPS units work fine. For rally, it's really hard and overly expensive to try to beat the simplicity, reliability, readability, and "mark-up-ability" of paper. I have out-of-the-box ideas about how to augment the roadbook with my device, but I'm not trying to replace the current paper system.

I concluded the rally market was too small to justify what I'm doing. Baja and similar Western USA desert racing is pretty big, making the market more attractive. So I'm doing my best to make something that would be attractive to both markets at a reasonable price.

Here's an old image of what I'm working on. More recently I've added a bunch of features that are not shown here. I'm well along with the packaging. Everything else is captured in a 60 page specification, but not implemented yet. I've got a great circuit block diagram, most of the key chips are selected, and I've done a very rough circuit board layout sketch (fit check). But the schematic, circuit board, and especially the software do not exist yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson.biguns View Post
Hogwild, if you want help or ideas on your project let me know. I'd be glad to help.
If you're an expert Eagle schematic capture and layout guy, then maybe we should talk!
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:11 AM   #1195
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I know nothing about Rally electronics but I build boats for a living so I am sort of familiar with marine electronics. We are a Garmin dealer and I have done a tech course on their newish models. Their (and I am sure many other brands too) new touchscreens feature new technology that make them a lot more durable, scratch proof, waterproof, sunlight readable, and user friendly. You can blast a high pressure hose directly at the screen without moving the cursor yet a light finger touch with a wet, fish slime covered finger will move it accurately. It can take a beating too, the rep will bash his keys into the screen with great force if some body asks about damaging the screen.

The screens also accept NMEA2000 data which we can use to get engine data from the ECU or via analogue adaptors as well as GPS data and chartplotter data.

What I am thinking some of this technology may filter down to be used on bike (and car) rally nav equipment. The GPS and Chartplotter stuff is a given but any engine data (EFI) could also be used as well as any other data you could think of. I am thinking Sentinal type system (maybe using current AIS technology in part). You could also use the DSC technology for communications.

To get around the gloves thing could you sew in a stylus type thing into the tips the fingers of the gloves?

Any of these ideas any good for a rally type set up?
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:51 PM   #1196
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Already familiar with that solution - and my preference is a system where I have both the true compass heading my bike rides in addition to a GPS system that only activates within a certain distance from desired waypoints.

That is a high-mounted GPS-compass repeater showing my true heading in magnetic degrees AND a handlebar mounted WP-activated GPS system which at best can be allowed to display heading to next waypoint with an arrow, compass heading and distance from WP.

The roadbook making is also a given factor to make this work.

What model GPS do you use? Schatt makes gps repeaters compatible with several models. You could set "proximity alarms" (accessible in some of the marine type GPS's, I think my old GPS176 has it) for the WP's. I don't think it would guide you in, per se, but I think once they activate it shows you distance to the mark.

I know you want to do it "right", but if that doesn't turn out to be feasible, you could get much of the effect as mentioned above.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:06 PM   #1197
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2013

Ok... time for 2013 rumors and rules...

Troy.. please ( I know you already know) fill us in (the short version) on the new rules on cars.. toyota hi lux's are in.. how bout a Tundra V8? Is it going to be a "stock" production only car class or what?

Watch for more Americans next year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickldo View Post
I know nothing about Rally electronics but I build boats for a living so I am sort of familiar with marine electronics. We are a Garmin dealer and I have done a tech course on their newish models. Their (and I am sure many other brands too) new touchscreens feature new technology that make them a lot more durable, scratch proof, waterproof, sunlight readable, and user friendly. You can blast a high pressure hose directly at the screen without moving the cursor yet a light finger touch with a wet, fish slime covered finger will move it accurately. It can take a beating too, the rep will bash his keys into the screen with great force if some body asks about damaging the screen.

The screens also accept NMEA2000 data which we can use to get engine data from the ECU or via analogue adaptors as well as GPS data and chartplotter data.

What I am thinking some of this technology may filter down to be used on bike (and car) rally nav equipment. The GPS and Chartplotter stuff is a given but any engine data (EFI) could also be used as well as any other data you could think of. I am thinking Sentinal type system (maybe using current AIS technology in part). You could also use the DSC technology for communications.

To get around the gloves thing could you sew in a stylus type thing into the tips the fingers of the gloves?

Any of these ideas any good for a rally type set up?
The BAJA HDS5 by Lowrance what is used by racers in the know..
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wrk2surf screwed with this post 01-19-2012 at 09:12 PM
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:28 PM   #1198
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Ok... time for 2013 rumors and rules...

T..
A lil birdie told me that 2013 Dakar will start in Lima and will include one stage in Bolivia. Everyone knows it is going to end in Santiago. I think its going to be a big old loop like this>



Its about 10,000km long. It will be longer than Dakar 2012.

Dream with me:

Stage one: A 50km liaison to a very technical stage of dunes and mountain ridges. My back yard. Should be about 150km of special and then a shortish liaison to Pisco.

Stage 2: The second last stage of this years Dakar reversed but including much more severe dune crossings and will likely see a lot of people fall out. Im guessing the biv will be in Ica.

Stage 3 A 300km liaison past Nasca to another gruelling dune special including the bits that were skipped this year and a couple of dune climbs that will stop a whole bunch more. I reckon this will be the most difficult stage of next year's Dakar.

They missed this dune this year because of the dangerous drop into the river, but doing it the other way (up) will be safer because a road section will guide them to the bottom of the dune. From there it will be hellish, I measured it to be 500m high. A 500km liaison through to Arequipa should finish off the stragglers.

Stage 4: Another LOOOOONG Liaison through to Moquegua in Peru where another special following riverbeds, dunes and river crossings to finish in Tacna on the border just to the north of Chile.


Stage 5: A classic Arica special but not a very long one. There will nevertheless be a long liaison through to Uyuni in Bolivia. The biggest salt pan on earth, the Salar de Uyuni will be crossed. It will be spectacular. Uyuni is only 20km from the mine where I work, the riding there is fantastic.

Stage 6: A brutal stage at 3,900m altitude will cut east accross small dune fields, scrubby bush and rocky washes. The biv will likely be in Tarija or some remote part of southern Bolivia.

Stage 7: Entering into northern Argentina's Juyjuy province, we have another difficult stage of soft fiambala-type dunes and fesh-fesh plains. This will be a 600km special stage. Carnage for the privateers.

Stage 8: Rest day, probably in the dusty town of San Antonio de Cobres. There wont be much rest.

Stage 9: The route continues south special will visit some dunes that were last seen I think in 2009. That year, they had rain so there were some spectacular photos, but I think the sand is very soft on any other day.

Stage 10: Dakar SA would not be Dakar if there was not a Fiambala stage. It will be tough but not as many stragglers as usual because most of them will have been culled off already.

Stage 11: Long liaison over into Chile before the route cuts north to Antofagasta. This may be a repeat of the stage 4 2010 Dakar.

Stage 12: The stage defined by the Iquique drop. Robbie Gordon's delight.

Stage 13: A long liaison followed by a another long special to end in Copiapo. This will be the longest day in total kilometers.

Stage 14: A nice liaison with a easy loop special outside Santiago somewhere.


Whaddayas reckon?

Tougher than this years route I would say.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:52 PM   #1199
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What do you make of the shipping with a Lima start?
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:07 PM   #1200
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I also heard a rumor that Lima would be the start for next years race.
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