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Old 02-11-2010, 11:37 AM   #121
gagnaou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K2vodka
Is this true?

I saw Gagnaou said that Luca knew that Despres had left KTM for BMW when speaking of Luca's health.

Is this just a rumor or fact?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

I did quick search on net and nothing came up and now I have to run.

Big news in my opinion.


Any info from those that are connected and would know this kind of things would be greatly appreciated.

Grazie!
Check out the Bivouac thread, there is also rumors that he and Coma have signed back with KTM and that KTM is developping a 450...
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:41 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf
if true... wondering if they are making the RFS 450 more reliable and adding tanks or breaking out the 05 400 (660) rallye.. probably the former .. wonder also if Coma has a "no cheat" clause?? No word on him and tyregate... guess he did the deed huh?
The RFS engine has not been 'current' for a couple of years now, it's the XC4 that is in the current EXC range (which has, amongst other things twin oil chambers and thus even less capacity)... I understand that some riders of the current 450/530 bikes drill the crank cases to allow the oil to circulate better - but I still think they will need a cooler/aux oil tank to improve capacity?

As for using a sleeved down version of the old LC4 engined bikes? Never! I double they would even sleeve a 690 engine to be honest - the bike is physically far larger than it needs to be to compete with the other 450cc class machines?

I envisage something along the lines of a Meca'system style 450, but perhaps with a one-piece rear tank/seat/subframe a la the 690RRs?

J xx
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:00 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf
if true... wondering if they are making the XC4 450 more reliable and adding tanks or breaking out the 05 400 (660) rallye.. probably the former .. wonder also if Coma has a "no cheat" clause?? No word on him and tyregate... guess he did the deed huh?
fixed.. girl you know your stuff I just had a brain fart...

a place near yosemite is always open when you make it back over!
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:52 PM   #124
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Hee hee - well, I'm kinda making it my business to know as much as I can about the different 450cc options at the moment x

A while back I speculated that a DRZ400 might make a good basis for a budget Dakar entry (not least the reliability of the engine and the easy/cheap availablity of spare parts) and I found this little gem recently:



There is the spec and more info here: http://www.ivokastan.cz/index.php?pg=061214

Although it is in Czech of course... seems very similar to what I was proposing though (450cc kit etc)...

Also, it turns out it was the same guy who rode the pit-bike in the Dakar last year (nutter!)... small world this Rally lark init?

J xx

ps. I love Yosemite - I'll be in touch x
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:30 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
Also, it turns out it was the same guy who rode the pit-bike in the Dakar last year (nutter!)... small world this Rally lark init?

J xx
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:40 PM   #126
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Hee hee - you wonder where he carried 3 litres of fuel, let alone water?!

xxx
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:23 PM   #127
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he was selling that on ebay recently ..
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:52 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
The RFS engine has not been 'current' for a couple of years now, it's the XC4 that is in the current EXC range (which has, amongst other things twin oil chambers and thus even less capacity)... I understand that some riders of the current 450/530 bikes drill the crank cases to allow the oil to circulate better - but I still think they will need a cooler/aux oil tank to improve capacity?

As for using a sleeved down version of the old LC4 engined bikes? Never! I double they would even sleeve a 690 engine to be honest - the bike is physically far larger than it needs to be to compete with the other 450cc class machines?

I envisage something along the lines of a Meca'system style 450, but perhaps with a one-piece rear tank/seat/subframe a la the 690RRs?

J xx
KTM have 4 options easily available to them

1) a sleeved down 690RR using the Rallye light approach like they did at the CER in 2008

This was done to great success with the 2005 450RR they made & raced, David Schwarz has said his 2005 Factory 450RR he used in Dakar 2005 is as fast as his 690RR







2) they still make the RFS motors for the quads, Annie Seel bought a new RFS motor from the factory for her Dakar 2010 bike this year, so a RFS motor based bike is easy

3) the XC motor with lots of factory mods to make it last the distance

4) use the Husaberg FE450 bike/motor. There were comments coming out of the factory rallye team this year at Dakar that they are seriously looking at using the FE450 platform for Dakar next year. This coupled with comments back in late 2008 and early 2009 that the next generation RR bikes would have sloper motors like the new Bergs, show very clearly that the benefits of that configuration for rallye are seen
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:37 PM   #129
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Oops! I was in the wrong section. My apologizes.

Obviously my question has been asked a while ago... and still no answer.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:39 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K2vodka
Oops! I was in the wrong section. My apologizes.

Obviously my question has been asked a while ago... and still no answer.
seems like no one really knows for sure

or those that do arnt saying
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:12 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafariBerg
KTM have 4 options easily available to them

1) a sleeved down 690RR using the Rallye light approach like they did at the CER in 2008

This was done to great success with the 2005 450RR they made & raced, David Schwarz has said his 2005 Factory 450RR he used in Dakar 2005 is as fast as his 690RR

2) they still make the RFS motors for the quads, Annie Seel bought a new RFS motor from the factory for her Dakar 2010 bike this year, so a RFS motor based bike is easy

3) the XC motor with lots of factory mods to make it last the distance

4) use the Husaberg FE450 bike/motor. There were comments coming out of the factory rallye team this year at Dakar that they are seriously looking at using the FE450 platform for Dakar next year. This coupled with comments back in late 2008 and early 2009 that the next generation RR bikes would have sloper motors like the new Bergs, show very clearly that the benefits of that configuration for rallye are seen
Hi Safari' - I agree there are a number of possibilities, however, I can't see KTM using their 'old' technology (ie the RFS engine) in their flagship factory effort? - that would be an admission of failure, even though, as we know, the RFS engine has proved very reliable for what is still a competitive 'race' motor...

Likewise, there is no way KTM will use the Husaburg engine - if only from a marketing point of view, they can't be seen to admit that a 'competitor' (even if they are the parent company) has a better design than they do?

That is not to say they are not working on their own development of the sloped motor (not that any other manufacturers can really see the benefit so far?), but to KTM brand image (and to a no lesser extent, 'racing what you sell') is everything... if you look at the new generation 350cc SX bike, I think that is where we'll see the EXC's heading? I can't imagine for a moment that KTM would have a brand new (and unproven) motor ready for next year's Dakar - that would be far too risky - think of all the "KTM can't cut it in the 450cc class" headlines - nightmare!

Personally I still think we'll see a derivative of the current 450cc XC4 engine, in a simpler chassis (rather than the trellis of the 690s), but with a one-piece rear end, and a similar fairing design to the current 690... just my feeling...

Jenny xx
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:34 AM   #132
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I agree with Jmo, in that KTM will want to win with their engine. However I think some of us are looking at the problem from a privateers perspective.

The new 450 rule will, for me, mean that the top teams will have a lot more for the mechanics to do. I applaud Sherco for their attempt at the Dakar this year, but was horrified to hear that they were stripping and rebuilding the motors every night!
You can be sure that next year KTM will be rebuilding motors everynight to make sure their 450 gets to the end. This to the outside world will make the KTM engine look strong and reliable. Proven in the Dakar!

This doesn't help anyone in the short term, but hopefully will lead to more reliable 450's in the future.
Personally I still don't understand who the rule change is mean't to help. The 450's still go fast enough for you to get hurt, and the future privateer will now have a less reliable bike, which probably needs an engine change on the rest day.
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:39 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet)
Hee hee - you wonder where he carried 3 litres of fuel, let alone water?!

xxx
That's a story he doesn't want to talk about

Kidding aside, I know he got special dispensation to ride that, maybe they waived a few other rules too for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf
he was selling that on ebay recently ..
I must have missed that! Probably for the best though, I might have done something silly like buy it.
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:51 AM   #134
JMo (& piglet)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManxBerg
I agree with Jmo, in that KTM will want to win with their engine. However I think some of us are looking at the problem from a privateers perspective.

The new 450 rule will, for me, mean that the top teams will have a lot more for the mechanics to do. I applaud Sherco for their attempt at the Dakar this year, but was horrified to hear that they were stripping and rebuilding the motors every night!
You can be sure that next year KTM will be rebuilding motors everynight to make sure their 450 gets to the end. This to the outside world will make the KTM engine look strong and reliable. Proven in the Dakar!

This doesn't help anyone in the short term, but hopefully will lead to more reliable 450's in the future.
Personally I still don't understand who the rule change is mean't to help. The 450's still go fast enough for you to get hurt, and the future privateer will now have a less reliable bike, which probably needs an engine change on the rest day.
I share your concerns Manxberg - I spent a lot of time (and money) building a 660cc rally bike last year, and now (realistically) I'm going to have to build a 450cc bike, and yet there is nothing out there with the bullet-proof reliability of a large capacity machine (unless I go totally old skool with an XR400 or DRZ400 and a big bore kit...)

However, from talk 'around the paddock' last year when the 450cc rule was introduced, it seems the feeling is that ASO want to limit the number of privateer entries on this rally anyway - we all know that a privateer entry in the bike class is the cheapest way to enter the Dakar, and it's not so much that privateers have more accidents (a lot don't, as their focus is on finishing, not racing at the limit the whole time), or even lack the necessary experiance - rather they want to preserve or even enhance the image that the Dakar is all about the elite, and 'superhuman', and not least that factory (or sponsored) teams have a lot more money, and will pay extra entry fees for all the additional mechanics they bring with them to ensure success?

I do think the ruling had a lot to do with encouraging other manufacturers (or at least teams willing to field bikes other than KTMs) to enter the race too - whether that happens we'll have to see, although like you say, Sherco did incredibly well for a first time effort - and no wonder they took every precaution to ensure the bike started the next morning!

However, while the bikes still provide a fantastic spectacle, I fear ASO are more interested in the 4 wheeled dollars the major manufacturers bring to the party? One thing is for sure, they aren't going to introduce a rule that makes it easier for anyone, or makes them any less money!

Just a thought to poke the fire around the bivouac mind...

Jenny xx
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:03 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManxBerg
I agree with Jmo, in that KTM will want to win with their engine. However I think some of us are looking at the problem from a privateers perspective.
on the rest day.
I agree, i think KTM are working on a design that will be capable of dominating for the next 5-8 years,if Despres and Coma do stick with KTM ,they will need equipment capable of winning ,Look how long the old LC 4/New LC 4 motors lasted,and if the rule change wasn't pushed apon them how long would it of been before they would update the new LC 4 690 ?

everyone knows KTM have dominated for the last 8 or 9 years, but part of that success is having the best riders on the planet riding their equipment.
the privateers will follow who provides the best backup support ,and KTM win that hands down too,as no other manufactuer even supports any privateer.
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