ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Beasts
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #15571
Krabill
Beastly Adventurer
 
Krabill's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Oddometer: 4,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
See what I mean about folks getting very defensive when "operator error", etc. are even mentioned...

Honestly, no offense is intended, toward anybody. But just because you have several other bikes in your garage and don't have any starting issues with any of them doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't necessarily doing something during starting that doesn't agree with it. Lots of folks had other cars in their garage besides Audi's or Toyota's, too, that they didn't have "unintended acceleration" issues with, yet those same folks stood hard on the gas pedal thinking they were pressing on the brake pedal...

It was proven time and time again, in a myriad of ways, that despite the owners' claims otherwise they put their foot on the wrong pedal, yet they would vehemently claim they did nothing wrong - and they never had any problem like that with their "other cars".

The point is that one should not just automatically dismiss the possibility that these "hard starting" instances as manufacturing defects of some kind. No two bikes brands are alike... They don't run alike, handle alike, sound alike, etc., etc., and you damn sure don't ride a Super Tenere like you would, say, a Ducati D16RR Desmosedici, or a Harley XR1200... I sure know I don't. You don't start 'em the same, either. At least I don't, and I own all three. They all also require quite a different starting routine than my vintage Norton Commando, or my CZ's, etc. I don't expect any one of them to, and I further expect I have to learn what each one *needs* to start, run, and operate optimally. That's my responsibility in the man/machine relationship.

To flippantly say that any problem like this one has to be the fault of "the bike" and ignore any other possibility is to suggest that oneself is somehow *perfect* and incapable of error. In other words, you're suggesting that other folks - the ones who built the bike or its components - are flagrantly in error, but that somehow you are incapable of it.

BTW, I have washed my bike dozens of times in the past 17 months/26-K+ miles of ownership and I've never had a starting problem. Due to some health issues mine had to sit from late September until December - over two months - without being started, ridden, or even having the battery charged... And yet it started right up. Then it had to sit again for the past month, but it started right up this past weekend and ran flawlessly for over 500 miles over two days an numerous starts. Moreover, much like GrahamD, I have gone out in the garage and tried dozens of combinations the past few days to try and duplicate the different things some folks say lead up to their "hard starting problem", and nothing... It just fires up like clockwork every single time.

I'm not saying there is not some sort of "problem", and I am trying to find a resolution to whatever the issue is even though I don't have it. Just check out the S-10 forum thread on the subject. But I'm not about to just summarily dismiss a very large part of the equation - the rider - that could be contributing to the problem. Sure, the bike *may* be the problem, but then again... Maybe not.

I've been messing with computers for decades, but I know when something goes wrong with one of them the first thing I think of is "What did I do?", or more importantly, "What did I do differently?" I don't just automatically assume that I'm somehow *perfect*, and incapable of error, and blame it on the machine or software.

Just my two centavos... YPPMMV.


Dallara





~
So then please enlighten us heathen newbies the proper procedure for starting a Tenere so as to assure it fires every time.

Just so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong, this is how I start all of the fuel injected bikes I have in the garage:

CBR1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

Vstrom 1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

WR250R - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

Tenere - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. Ugh

If I'm doing something wrong, please tell me.
__________________
Loud Sucks!
www.wrrdualsport.com
www.designatedvaping.com <- for all your electronic cigarette needs
Krabill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:03 PM   #15572
Dallara
Creaks When Walks...
 
Dallara's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: South Texas
Oddometer: 1,710
First things first...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
So then please enlighten us heathen newbies the proper procedure for starting a Tenere so as to assure it fires every time.

Just so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong, this is how I start all of the fuel injected bikes I have in the garage:

CBR1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

Vstrom 1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

WR250R - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

Tenere - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. Ugh

If I'm doing something wrong, please tell me.

OK, first thing, let me ask you a couple of questions...

How are your throttle cables adjusted? Specifically, did you adjust the throttle cable to remove literally all the freeplay at the throttle grip?

Second, have you installed handlebar risers of any kind, and if so, which ones?

Yamaha sends these bikes with a fairly large amount of slack in the throttle cable and the grip, and I have found on a couple of other brand FI-equipped bikes that if folks adjust their throttle cables to literally have zero slack and virtually no freeplay in the throttle grip that they can often experience intermittent starting problems.

That'll get us started...

Dallara



~
__________________
~

You never see a motorcycle parked outside a psychiatrist's office

~
Dallara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #15573
Krabill
Beastly Adventurer
 
Krabill's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Oddometer: 4,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
OK, first thing, let me ask you a couple of questions...

How are your throttle cables adjusted? Specifically, did you adjust the throttle cable to remove literally all the freeplay at the throttle grip?

Second, have you installed handlebar risers of any kind, and if so, which ones?

Yamaha sends these bikes with a fairly large amount of slack in the throttle cable and the grip, and I have found on a couple of other brand FI-equipped bikes that if folks adjust their throttle cables to literally have zero slack and virtually no freeplay in the throttle grip that they can often experience intermittent starting problems.

That'll get us started...

Dallara



~
I haven't changed anything on the bike except added luggage, heated grips, and an electrical port for my heated gear. The handlebars are stock. No risers.

FYI - the first time it happened was before I added anything. It was bone stock. 2nd and 3rd time were after the mods, but again, nothing major has been touched.

I have tightened my throttle cable, but only to the spec in the service manual. There is still play in it.

As a trials rider, I am very particular about my throttle set up and all of my bikes are set up exactly the same. There is free play in the throttle, but not much. Just enough to where nothing is binding with the throttle fully closed with the handlebars at full turn.
__________________
Loud Sucks!
www.wrrdualsport.com
www.designatedvaping.com <- for all your electronic cigarette needs
Krabill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #15574
Dallara
Creaks When Walks...
 
Dallara's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: South Texas
Oddometer: 1,710
Thumb Good "start"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
I haven't changed anything on the bike except added luggage, heated grips, and an electrical port for my heated gear. The handlebars are stock. No risers.

FYI - the first time it happened was before I added anything. It was bone stock. 2nd and 3rd time were after the mods, but again, nothing major has been touched.

I have tightened my throttle cable, but only to the spec in the service manual. There is still play in it.

As a trials rider, I am very particular about my throttle set up and all of my bikes are set up exactly the same. There is free play in the throttle, but not much. Just enough to where nothing is binding with the throttle fully closed with the handlebars at full turn.

I'm not saying you should adjust your other bikes any differently... Not at all. However, there have been some indications that the throttle position sensors on the Super Tenere and its "fly by wire" set-up are very particular about certain things, so you might just *TRY* backing off the cable adjustment a tiny bit to give the bike just a bit more throttle freeplay, and see if that helps. Yes, even a bit more feeplay than the service manual specs... No certainty that it will help, but it can't hurt to try it.

You mentioned having a problem after some mods you made... When you made any of these mods did you move, shift, or significantly re-route any factory OEM electrical harnesses or leads? Reason I ask is that a European source has found that a very real and significant idling/ignition malfunction was occurring due to some mis-routed wiring harnesses. Once these were routed correctly and not electromagnetically interfering with each other everything was fine.

BTW, I have to leave for a while so I won't be responding further until later this evening.

Dallara




~


`
__________________
~

You never see a motorcycle parked outside a psychiatrist's office

~
Dallara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:52 PM   #15575
Krabill
Beastly Adventurer
 
Krabill's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Oddometer: 4,257
Nothing on the oem wiring has been relocated.

Some little tid-bits of information about me - I've been riding and wrenching on motorcycles for over 30 years. I started out with trail bikes, moved on to motocross bikes, back to trail bikes, and then got into competing in trials. The Tenere is my first "street" bike, but all those years riding and wrenching on dirtbikes has taught me a thing or two about bike setup and reliability. I do all of my own set up. I've *fixed* friend's bikes that have been set up by "professionals". You do not want to be in the middle of the woods and have something go wrong with your throttle cable, or your electrical system. All of my wiring is proper, tight, and secured. I've fixed many-a-bike on the side of the trail - but none of them were mine.

I understand that as you turn the bars closer to lock, the throttle cable tightens itself up. I check for these things. Full lock left, and full lock right. The throttle cable does not bind. I've checked it. I go over everything I know to go over on all of my bikes. They are in perfect working order. I am very particular about everything. I would not hesitate about jumping on any bike I own and taking off across the country with nothing more than an air pressure check. They are all ready-to-ride. Yes, even the Tenere. I've got 10k miles on it and it's only given me trouble those 3 times so far and it does eventually start, it's just annoying. I don't leave maintenance issues unresolved. I don't skimp on anything. If an issue arises, it gets fixed immediately. The right way. There is no duct tape or tie-wire involved.

That said, I am still open to hearing any and all theories as to why this thing acts up from time to time. If it is something I can fix, I'll fix it. If there is something I am doing wrong, I'll change it. I'm not above being wrong.
__________________
Loud Sucks!
www.wrrdualsport.com
www.designatedvaping.com <- for all your electronic cigarette needs
Krabill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 02:59 PM   #15576
GrahamD
Beastly Adventurer
 
GrahamD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Blue Mnts Ozstralia
Oddometer: 4,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredz43 View Post
Dallara and Graham,

Now, having said that, in January, 2011, we had one of Yamaha's Euro S10's that were making the rounds to dealers for display. While we were showing the features of that bike in the 5 days we had it on the floor, we started it many times for short periods and had no problems with it flooding. But, still, I have seen it twice on USA bikes, both times after brief running periods with cold engines.
This is about where I am going with the idea. I had no problem on day one running through most of the common scenario's I had read about the hard start. 30 starts, doing everything "wrong" and it just kept starting. It wasn't until two days later with a slightly limp battery that it didn't start "as fast as I thought it should" and I "instinctively" let go of the button at the "normal" time and retried.

That's when I noticed the bike was a bit gnarly. Left to sit for two days, battery not 100% and there you have a problem if you don't keep it winding until it fires.

So I cycled the bike with the starter a few times on purpose before it giving it a "normal" crank. Then it stuffed up. You could tell it was already a bit unhappy but I had an idea that turning it over with the starter was going to be pumping fuel. I had pretty well determined that just cycling the ECU with the key switch was probably not the issue and neither was the kill switch having much effect.

Some bikes , because of component tolerances emissions and adjustment differences are going to be a bit more susceptible to this, some aren't.

But the sitting around after short runs seems to be one of the main indicators that you may end up having a problem.

I have never had an issue with the bike, but I also am very "Dallara" with it normally.

It normally gets started, warmed to at least 50C and ridden a reasonable distance. All habit. The cars get the same treatment and I have been doing the same for years.

Just an aside, I notice that my wife has some issues starting my car because she is so used to the ECU controlling the starter that she has become used to just engaging the starter and letting go. She hasn't even twigged to the fact that it is the ECU that is deciding when the starter is stopped not her. So in my car she just gets cranky when it won't start after the 4th attempt and ...starts pumping the accelerator. Eventually the frustration and crankiness cause her to keep cranking that extra second or two. I can't convince her that pumping the accelerator has nothing to do with it.

The other interesting part there is that Toyota have opted for an ECU controlled starter. I wonder why?
__________________
"It's better to ride a boring bike than push an interesting one" ... Canuman

"I just may as well admit that my other bikes are toast. I don't ride them. Plain and simple. I didn't want this. It wasn't the plan." - snakebitten

GrahamD screwed with this post 01-23-2013 at 04:31 PM
GrahamD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #15577
GrahamD
Beastly Adventurer
 
GrahamD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Blue Mnts Ozstralia
Oddometer: 4,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krabill View Post

That said, I am still open to hearing any and all theories as to why this thing acts up from time to time. If it is something I can fix, I'll fix it. If there is something I am doing wrong, I'll change it. I'm not above being wrong.
Don't think it's the cables. The cables on my "never had an issue" bike are the same and have not changed.

The fact that I could induce the bike to have an "issue" by noting some of the stories out there is the issue.

Badly adjusted cables may play a bit a role in some sensor inputs but I will leave that one alone for now.

There may also be a combination of the most "common issue" and unrelated starting issues.

Some people just may have a dicky radiation affected intermittent sensor. Rare but it happens.
__________________
"It's better to ride a boring bike than push an interesting one" ... Canuman

"I just may as well admit that my other bikes are toast. I don't ride them. Plain and simple. I didn't want this. It wasn't the plan." - snakebitten
GrahamD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #15578
twinrider
pass the catnip
 
twinrider's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: 日本
Oddometer: 8,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave6 View Post
I purchased a brand new in the box L/H side Staintune pipe for a Ducati ST4 off Ebay, total cost to me was $250.00 cdn including shipping and about 2 hours labour after work.
No more worries about cars not hearing you, what did you have to do to get it to fit?
__________________
2011 XT1200Z
2009 FLHR
2006 Djebel 250XC
twinrider is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #15579
dave6
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dave6's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Oddometer: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinrider View Post
No more worries about cars not hearing you, what did you have to do to get it to fit?
A little bit of cutting and welding and its on. Signal lights will have to be changed to avoid being fried.
__________________
dave6
dave6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:05 PM   #15580
twinrider
pass the catnip
 
twinrider's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: 日本
Oddometer: 8,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave6 View Post
A little bit of cutting and welding and its on. Signal lights will have to be changed to avoid being fried.
Nice to have those skills.
__________________
2011 XT1200Z
2009 FLHR
2006 Djebel 250XC
twinrider is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:30 PM   #15581
jly51
Adventurer
 
jly51's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Northwest Tennessee
Oddometer: 39
I have not followed this thread completly but would like to throw something out to you.I was a salesperson at a large dealership for several years,both new and used.We learned the hard way that fuel injected atv`s would load up and foul plugs if we started ,moved them shut them off with out letting them warm completly.After a week or so this the plugs foul and it wont start without a new one.When the motor is cool it is running on a rich fuel circuit,when it warms it goes switches to normal.I don`t know if if this applies to this problem but a series of short runs can starting ploblems.Hope this can help .
jly51 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:36 PM   #15582
MeefZah
Curmudgeonly
 
MeefZah's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: New Philadelphia, Ohio
Oddometer: 10,233
Re: hard starting, as long as it starts in a few seconds after going WFO, WhoTF cares????????????

Of all the things to anguish about.... jeez.
__________________
"A man turns his back on the comforts of home, and when the dust all settles and the story is told, history is made by the side of the road..." - DBT

My Smugmug Galleries
MeefZah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:45 PM   #15583
snakebitten
Small Town Hick
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Coastal Texas
Oddometer: 951
Bragged that I never had the hard start. Bragged that I never wash the bike and then start it to move it. Bragged that I never cycle the key without starting the bike and allowing it to reach operating temp before shutting it down. (~140F)

Then, away from home, after it sat in the hangar all day, I inadvertently hit the starter button and released it before it actually fired up. When she didn't start immediately on the second try, I knew what I was experiencing. Went to half throttle then wide open over about 4 seconds time. She lit. Unhappily though.

So, all I know is she is as reliable as Dallara's and GrahamD's if I don't do anything out of the ordinary. But I won't tempt her again. NEVER touch that button without letting her start AND run long enough to go "full cycle"

Computers. ECU's. FI. FBWire. Hmmmmph. Combined, they are like the garden of eden. Really nice. But don't break the ONE rule they have or they punish you.
__________________
**********************
XT1200Z BIGGEST Dirt Bike in the world
snakebitten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 07:16 PM   #15584
GrahamD
Beastly Adventurer
 
GrahamD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Blue Mnts Ozstralia
Oddometer: 4,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
Bragged that I never had the hard start. Bragged that I never wash the bike and then start it to move it. Bragged that I never cycle the key without starting the bike and allowing it to reach operating temp before shutting it down. (~140F)
Most religions seem to have something to say about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by snakebitten View Post
Then, away from home, after it sat in the hangar all day, I inadvertently hit the starter button and released it before it actually fired up. When she didn't start immediately on the second try, I knew what I was experiencing. Went to half throttle then wide open over about 4 seconds time. She lit. Unhappily though.
That is part of the reason for doing it. As you are now aware parts of Australia outside Victoria can be a bit detrimental to your health if you get stuck.

So I want to know the signs and solutions is it happens. I also want to know how it happens so I can avoid it.
because of the interwebs I knew pretty much, in theory, how to deal with it.

I now know how many times the battery will start the bike (30+) without a recharge.

I have also short cycled, started and shut down the bike twice since the hard start and it hasn't missed a beat. The only difference being the battery is now completely charged,

And if I think back on the days of carburetors, I'm not complaining. Really. No more sticky slides, rotating venturis, pump circuits not working, linkages unbolting themselves mid corner...bla bla bla..

I know, all operator error.

They still sell DCOE Webers you know.
__________________
"It's better to ride a boring bike than push an interesting one" ... Canuman

"I just may as well admit that my other bikes are toast. I don't ride them. Plain and simple. I didn't want this. It wasn't the plan." - snakebitten
GrahamD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 08:54 PM   #15585
~TABASCO~
www.rideonadv.com
 
~TABASCO~'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Tejas
Oddometer: 372
Dave6,

Good job on that pipe... did you post that video over here ? Maybe a few customers might be interested in that pipe and sound ? Sounds great !
__________________
www.rideonadv.com
We are ADV, everyday.
~TABASCO~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014