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Old 03-10-2010, 09:36 AM   #1951
Kawidad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MookieBlaylock
21 better on dirt surfaces , more margin for error , more precise steering, rolls over rocks with more ease and less deflection

21 on road not so much. I always get the feeling that skinny little front tire is gonna let go when cranked over

they have to pick one or the other though so 19 seems to be the best bet
I have to agree with this and disagree with Rupert. I had a KTM and felt that one of the weaknesses of the bike was the tire sizing. I think the 17/19 combo is the best compromise choice. I agree with a lot of the Orange Crushers that KTM blew it and should have had the 17/19 on the standard Adventure and then 18/21 on the fancy off road versions.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:01 AM   #1952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRupert
Is a 270 degree parallel twin crank a cross-plane?
As I understand it, the term arises from whether the cranks throws are in a single "plane" or not. Crossplanes cranks are not by virtue of the throws "crossing" a single plane. But despite 270-deg cranks being used for many years now on motorcycles, particularly by Triumph in their cruisers and street retros, I've never heard the term applied to a twin, just inline-fours and V8's (where it applies to each cylinder bank)

If you think about it, 180- and 360-deg parallel twins are "in plane" and a 270-deg is not, so by virtue of the actual concept of the term, a 270-deg parallel twin has a crossplane crank.

If you read Yamaha's explanation of how "inertia torque" works on their R1, I doubt you could claim the same principle for a crossplane twin though. Some think a 270-deg twin "hooks up" in the dirt better, but I personally think Yamaha (like Triuimph) mostly used the 270-deg crank to provide a little differentiation and a more interesting exhaust note, as most think 180-deg and 360-deg crank parallel twins don't sound very good, especially when choked down with government-required mufflers. And although the R1 supporters would disagree, I think sound and engine character may have more to do with the crossplane crank in the inline-four than any "inertia torque" advantages. I could see the crossplane crank in the R1 going the way of five-valve heads as it adds a lot of weight for a performance advantage that may only be there at the extreme limits of racing.

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Old 03-10-2010, 12:02 PM   #1953
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Yamaha has just used their "cross-plane" designation for a 270 deg crank.

A good comparison of the two would be the Triumph Bonneville/Scrambler. Ride both and you should get a feel for how the 270 crank effects power delivery.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:26 PM   #1954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthroamer
Yamaha has just used their "cross-plane" designation for a 270 deg crank..
I'm not sure that's true, tbh; the new S10 is being put forth as a technical tour de force. Afaik it's the same cross-plane tech that is in the R1, but I'm not an engineer.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:30 PM   #1955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_rev
I'm not sure that's true, tbh; the new S10 is being put forth as a technical tour de force. Afaik it's the same cross-plane tech that is in the R1, but I'm not an engineer.
Read markjenn's explanation, he says it very well. Cross-plane has more meaning in 4 cylinder engine. When it's a parallel twin, it's 270 deg.

BTW, I'm no expert. It just seems to me so simple in the case of the twin. The pistons are either firing in-plane (360) or cross-plane (270).
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:35 PM   #1956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthroamer
Read markjenn's explanation, he says it very well. Cross-plane has more meaning in 4 cylinder engine. When it's a parallel twin, it's 270 deg.

BTW, I'm no expert. It just seems to me so simple in the case of the twin. The pistons are either firing in-plane (360) or cross-plane (270).
I've read a tech piece about the cross-plane in the S10, I'm just too much of a doofus to explain it properly .

But what I'm saying is, I don't think this is just marketing; Yamaha have loaded this bike with gizmos. Not MS1200 levels, but enough for them to talk about it as a difference-maker.

Which is why the first press reports are going to be vital; if this big lug rides better than it looks on paper, it could be a very good bike indeed. But if it's another VFR1200, it's going to embarass Yamaha Corp.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:24 PM   #1957
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I'm a year or so off buying a new bike. I rode my buddy Super Tenere (750) and thought it was great but.. It seems the but is settled here. My "wants" are gravel capable, but a mile eater.

The only 2 bikes I consider right now are the F800GS and the C14. Neither really fit the bill. I really have a hard time with the thoughts of less than 100 hp. By the same token the C14 is an over weight old man land yacht.

I just can't go Orange, and I helped drag a GSA in the mud one day. That exposed too many weakness for it to work for me.

So when Yamaha USA do I get to spend my money?
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:45 PM   #1958
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Right, I've looked at the tech article, and - if I read this right - the S10 has a true crossplane crank because it has zero torque arising from the engine configuration/pistons/firing order.

The only torque input is from the riders throttle hand. Not from engine 'character'.

Also, Yamaha's UK head says the traction control and ABS on the S10 are 'the next step' for these technologies.

Riding the bloody thing will show us if this if marketing guff or not
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:04 PM   #1959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_rev
- the S10 has a true crossplane crank because it has zero torque arising from the engine configuration/pistons/firing order.
I take that to mean a 270 crank.



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Old 03-10-2010, 02:11 PM   #1960
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Originally Posted by earthroamer
I'm here to learn not to teach.
Me too.

What's your point? I've already said I'm rubbish at this kind of thing
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:13 PM   #1961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRupert
Who said 125 kgs? 180 kg dry / 120 kg wet would be a nice start. The KTM ADV 950 was 199/130 way back in 2003, so it would not be unreasonable to expect Yam to improve on that.

23 L? Less weight needs less fuel. Maybe 19 litres would carry you as far on a lighter bike as 23 would on a bloater.

Cheers.
I will wait and see about the actual weight of a "naked" S10.
YAMAHA quote a higher wet weight on the 660 "adventurer" than the 660 "naked" so I have read, in this thread some where, so if they are following the same line I would expect the same for the S10.

If it becomes a big issue and huge flocks of people walk away because of that extra 20Kg, then I am sure that the R1 engineers could be utilized to fix that problem.

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Old 03-10-2010, 02:35 PM   #1962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane Dr
I'm a year or so off buying a new bike. I rode my buddy Super Tenere (750) and thought it was great but.. It seems the but is settled here. My "wants" are gravel capable, but a mile eater.

The only 2 bikes I consider right now are the F800GS and the C14. Neither really fit the bill. I really have a hard time with the thoughts of less than 100 hp. By the same token the C14 is an over weight old man land yacht.

I just can't go Orange, and I helped drag a GSA in the mud one day. That exposed too many weakness for it to work for me.

So when Yamaha USA do I get to spend my money?
I'd have to agree that the 650-800cc class should get a better run of it.
The fixation on bigger and bigger seems to be a bit over done really.

BUT, if someone did release just for example, a 600cc twin, my personal preference would be a 90deg Vee, loaded with all the gizmos, just like the S10, would it realistically have a price tag that would be acceptable in a Japanese bike.

I know a lot of people will accept that apples = apples but in some places for some reason, people will not accept that the same engineering in a Japanese bike is allowed to cost the same as a Euro machine.

They often just perceive that it must be inferior quality so therefore should cost as much.

Say for an extreme example a Chinese Manufacturer decided to get serious and hired all the top engineers, metallurgists, road testers etc and released a bike that was every bit as good as the Ducati and asked the same price and it was released as the Chuan Top Speed Monster S12 G/S.

How many do you think it would sell?

It took Toyota 10 years in my country to convince people they knew how to make luxury cars before they could get price parity. In the mean time Mercedes QA was dropping below some of the Korean makes (by first year fault figures). Mercedes are still perceived as top quality though.

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Old 03-10-2010, 03:14 PM   #1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRupert
Noooooooo!

You obviously haven't ridden a KTM 9?0 Adventure!


17" wheels are only really suited to race track riding. In any real-world road riding (excluding the fastest, perfectly surfaced, fast sweepers... maybe) the 18/21 combo will prevail. No... really. I know it's unbelievable. You really should try it.
You're quoting me out of context. The Ducati Multi 12 is a sport touring bike, not an adventure touring bike, even though it pretends to be, and the 17" front wheel is proof of that. On the paved roads is where this Ducati will shine.

I have ridden my 21" wheeled bike in the tight twisties, it sucks.. Steering inputs are slow and the steering is nowhere near as responsive as a 17" period.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:48 PM   #1964
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Originally Posted by Gadget Boy

I have ridden my 21" wheeled bike in the tight twisties, it sucks.. Steering inputs are slow and the steering is nowhere near as responsive as a 17" period.
Would't that be a matter of centrpedal? forces though. If the 21 Inch front had more weight toward the inside would it really make that much difference?

Is it more a matter of light weight RRRace tyres Vs heavier tough ass off road tyres adding to the centrepedal force 25mm further from centre?

Inquiring minds want to know!

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Old 03-10-2010, 05:49 PM   #1965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD
Would't that be a matter of centrpedal? forces though. If the 21 Inch front had more weight toward the inside would it really make that much difference?

Is it more a matter of light weight RRRace tyres Vs heavier tough ass off road tyres adding to the centrepedal force 25mm further from centre?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Cheers
Graham
Actually the spoked 21's are the same or lighter than a typical 17". I have both wheel sets for my DRZ and the 17's it is a crazy canyon slicer upper. Even when I had road oriented rubber on the 18-21 it wasn't even close. The motards have some qualities.

I have a heavily worked DRZ. I have gnarly offroad to medium grade adventure touring covered. I need/want something for lighter offroad greater distance. Unfortunately the there is no replacement for displacement.

BMW claims 85 HP for the 800 GS. So what mid 70"s? I don't gain much from the DRZ other than 6th gear. It doesn't strike me as enough oomph for easy miles. I still intend to test ride one though. Maybe a ride will be enough.
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