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Old 04-16-2010, 12:41 PM   #2281
mrbreeze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins
no different the the 89-90 transalp. the us consumer did not understand those bikes back then. times are much different & the ds/adv market is surging.
I don't know - as I recall, the tdm850 got good reviews in the magazines. I was bike shopping then, and I looked at the tdm. It was in the same price range as the Suzuki GSX1100G and the Kawasaki ZR1000. In other words, it was over priced. I wasn't impressed with the Yamaha's styling, either. I did take one for a test spin, and I was not impressed. The tranny felt like it had rocks in it.

I eventually bought a Suzuki VX800. It was a LOT less expensive and the torquey v-twin reminded me of the old British twins (this was all pre-Meridian Triumph). All it needed was a suspension upgrade and it was a blast to ride. Now if you want to talk about misunderstood bikes, the VX800 is King of that class.

I understood the tdm well enough - Yamaha just failed to execute on that bike. Not my fault it was a dog on the showroom floor.
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Old 04-17-2010, 02:03 AM   #2282
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Wink It's all in teh genes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbreeze
I understood the tdm well enough - Yamaha just failed to execute on that bike. Not my fault it was a dog on the showroom floor.
Ehrm, if you think you understand the TDM, and then say the VX was equially good, you certainly don't understand the TDM :-)


The VX is a sort of Oiltanker, whereas the TDM is a Jetski on speed :-)

That was the "problem" with the TDM, it was (and still mostly is) a bike who has a character which has to be handled by an experienced rider...

That shook of a lot of potential customers, it was too headstrong for most riders, it quirky on/off throttle response and "on its head" steering behavior was a real boon if you like to ride SM style Stop&Go, but it was a steep learning curve if you were a more laidback type of rider.

Especially the headstrong behavior of it when braking in corners has put of a lot of owners, and that is where the R-genus (R/C/GS) of BMW shines, the Telelever makes it easy even for a verry inexperienced rider to get confidence. Where the TDM with it's Steering-On-Steroids put people of, the GS was more Steering-On-Prozac.

That will be the main thing where the newe Tenere will have a hard job to follow suit, technically it will be easy to surpass the clunky tranny, the awkward anorexic engine feeling, but how in the world are you to put in a conventionally forked bike, the really awe inspiring confidence giving machine of that telelever...

But we will be able to go and explore it soon, and since the first TDM Yamaha have learned an enormous lot since enlisting The Doctor, who now even wins the *first* MotoGP on the slowest bike on the circuit, purily because it handles so much better and compliant than the rest.

Last MotoGP was really wonderfull to see for a technicalnerd like me, where the Honda, arguably the Fastest Machine on Earth shook and reared its head like a old TDM, the M1 staid rock solid and compliant even on the immense braking load after the verrry long highspeed straight.

Just look at how much more solid the M1 looks in the corners, were Hayden and Dovisioso (not to speak of the poor Pedrosa) had their hands full of keeping their bikes in lane, Rossi, Lorenzo and Spies rode to the finish like they were relaxedly seated in the comfortableseats of the Flying Scotsman.

I hope the have taken the genes of the M1 handling and put it into the Petri disk in which the S10 was conceived :-)
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:35 AM   #2283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbreeze

I eventually bought a Suzuki VX800. It was a LOT less expensive and the torquey v-twin reminded me of the old British twins (this was all pre-Meridian Triumph). All it needed was a suspension upgrade and it was a blast to ride. Now if you want to talk about misunderstood bikes, the VX800 is King of that class.
I hear ya. I sold my VX years ago and wish I still had it

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Old 04-18-2010, 09:08 AM   #2284
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I personally do not find v twins torquey compared to a parallel twin, like the Supertenere or TDM, they will idle through deep sand at 1500 rpm's, or in 5th gear through towns at the same engine speed, and pick up without any protest when opening up the throttle no hesitation at all.
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:08 AM   #2285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookeniggy
The story isn't bolony,
Yamaha reps at headquarters of Yamaha Europe told me the same thing at the introduction of the new S10, its coming to the US and Canada probably this Fall
I would be very surprised if they did not bring it to the US. Although they have'nt bought the 660Z there, there is so much R+D gone into this bike (as it is all new, unlike the 660) that they would be daft not to. They must have made a huge investment into it and a lot of it before the current recession.
The bike is obviously designed to go head to head with the GS/GSA so they would be mad not to persue the biggest market in the world.

Pricing is a problem though. In the UK, had the Yen not dropped by a third in value in 18 months the Super Tenere would likely be 9100 and not 13500, a grand dearer than the full spec GSA.
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:01 PM   #2286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookeniggy
I personally do not find v twins torquey compared to a parallel twin, like the Supertenere or TDM, they will idle through deep sand at 1500 rpm's, or in 5th gear through towns at the same engine speed, and pick up without any protest when opening up the throttle no hesitation at all.

Essentially the S10 and latter day TDM's *are* V-Twins, with the cyinders rotated together and the crankpins rotated with them... :-)
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:16 AM   #2287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Ehrm, if you think you understand the TDM, and then say the VX was equially good, you certainly don't understand the TDM :-)


The VX is a sort of Oiltanker, whereas the TDM is a Jetski on speed :-)

That was the "problem" with the TDM, it was (and still mostly is) a bike who has a character which has to be handled by an experienced rider...

That shook of a lot of potential customers, it was too headstrong for most riders, it quirky on/off throttle response and "on its head" steering behavior was a real boon if you like to ride SM style Stop&Go, but it was a steep learning curve if you were a more laidback type of rider.

Especially the headstrong behavior of it when braking in corners has put of a lot of owners, and that is where the R-genus (R/C/GS) of BMW shines, the Telelever makes it easy even for a verry inexperienced rider to get confidence. Where the TDM with it's Steering-On-Steroids put people of, the GS was more Steering-On-Prozac.
spot on dude... cheers...
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Old 04-19-2010, 02:01 PM   #2288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Essentially the S10 and latter day TDM's *are* V-Twins, with the cyinders rotated together and the crankpins rotated with them... :-)
I'd suggest we'd call it an i twin
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Old 04-19-2010, 07:28 PM   #2289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookeniggy
I'd suggest we'd call it an i twin
Yeah, it is a real intelligent Twin, the compact weighjtsaving of the parralel twin, with the Tire saving powersurge buildup of the L-Twin, that gives so much traction without shredding the tires...
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:10 AM   #2290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Yeah, it is a real intelligent Twin, the compact weighjtsaving of the parralel twin, with the Tire saving powersurge buildup of the L-Twin, that gives so much traction without shredding the tires...
And the downwart momentum of the crank that really kinda pulls the bike into the dirt making the bike so stable on high speed even on wornout tires and really deep sand, snow, fine dust, always traction in mud, even on wornout tkc 80's or michelin desert's, but thats the old super, but probably the same for the new one, since the layout of the entire bike is more or less the same....
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:00 AM   #2291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookeniggy
And the downwart momentum of the crank that really kinda pulls the bike into the dirt....
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint. Crank orientation/layout has no effect on traction. Firing order/spacing may have, but even this is controversial and essentially unproven.

- Mark
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:14 PM   #2292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint. Crank orientation/layout has no effect on traction. Firing order/spacing may have, but even this is controversial and essentially unproven.

- Mark
Seriously...remember that that crank is going to swing back UP in the next 180 degrees.

Maybe that makes wheelies easier?

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Old 04-20-2010, 01:35 PM   #2293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint. Crank orientation/layout has no effect on traction. Firing order/spacing may have, but even this is controversial and essentially unproven.

- Mark
Fully agree with first statement...that makes no sense.

About second one - it is not effect on traction, it is effect on handling as result of traction distribution allowing rear to regain lost grip easily and give early and progressive warning.
Unproven...mmmm....can't agree. Almost all bikes in GP and majority in SB using this effect, Ducati did since 916 and when switch from say il4 to 90 degrees it is noticeable even to intermediate rider after habits settle to slightly different approach to taking corners.
TRX uses that effect wonderfully.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:54 PM   #2294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint. Crank orientation/layout has no effect on traction. Firing order/spacing may have, but even this is controversial and essentially unproven.

- Mark
Kreidler van Veen, Van Veen ocr wankel, BMW G450 X, 2010 Yamaha YZ 450 all bikes with the cylinder (s) and or firing order designed to give the bike a specific handling characteristics, just a few common and or uncommon designs on how much this departement in design affects the ultimate handling of a bike.
A bike that has its crank lower than the gearbox and the cylinders bend over almost halfway horizontally will direkt its centrifugal motion the way its aimed at, in this case into the ground, wich will ultimately give a bike a natural stable feel, regardless of suspension setup or tires, of course corners aren't its nutural habitat, but its not what the bike was designed for over two decades back.
Who cares about a low center of gravity, to Dakar is a long straightways, alias Fabrizio Meoni
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:19 PM   #2295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookeniggy
Kreidler van Veen, Van Veen ocr wankel, BMW G450 X, 2010 Yamaha YZ 450 all bikes with the cylinder (s) and or firing order designed to give the bike a specific handling characteristics, just a few common and or uncommon designs on how much this departement in design affects the ultimate handling of a bike.
A bike that has its crank lower than the gearbox and the cylinders bend over almost halfway horizontally will direkt its centrifugal motion the way its aimed at, in this case into the ground, wich will ultimately give a bike a natural stable feel, regardless of suspension setup or tires, of course corners aren't its nutural habitat, but its not what the bike was designed for over two decades back.
Who cares about a low center of gravity, to Dakar is a long straightways, alias Fabrizio Meoni
All below is IMHO based on my knowledge as graduated mechanical engineer...still I could be wrong, don't take it as trying to push my opinion through.
Firing order/pulsing delivery is key to keeping grip and allowing wheel to regain it.
Centrifugal force is not directed down or up. For example centrifugal force and higher than walking speeds are responsible for making motorcycle lean outwards in corners, not for pushing it into ground. Perhaps you mean summary vector of inertia forces distorted by presence of unbalanced mass, rod pull and push etc. This will have practically no effect on vehicle with high relation between engine components mass and piston mass and specially in presence of balancer shafts. Rotational force will.
Actually I never thought of it in scope of light mx bikes, but for Sutenere it would be negiligible effect even if there is no balancer shafts.
Centrifugal force actually translates as force coming off center...not sure if my English is enough for it...
Also in your statement you do not mention centrifugal force of rotating wheels, sprockets, gearbox components, pull of rod, directions of rods, pull of chain.....hundreds of factors.
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