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Old 04-20-2010, 02:27 PM   #2296
vander
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OK, some RIDE FOR LIFE winners here?

http://www.super-tenere.com/generic_...page=1#uploads
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:00 PM   #2297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense from a physics standpoint. Crank orientation/layout has no effect on traction. Firing order/spacing may have, but even this is controversial and essentially unproven.

- Mark
Uhm, Yamaha have proven it, look at the M1 it sure hasn't got the power of the Duc or Honnepon, but what it lacks in power it wins in traction and ridability, thanks to it's crossplane firing, giving the Tire a slowly building deformation, creating extra grip (you have to *push* a tire to get grip out of it, and casey did the oposite last race...) and then the tire is "powered down" again, so it can regain full contact, and gets a power-pause to stop a uncontroled drift before it gets so uncontrolable it could result in a highsider if the tire suddenly regains grip...

And the reciprocating masses have a definit effect ond handling, yamaha once experimented countercranck in their RD500 but it became a uncontrolable beast.
(think gyroscopic forces in steering)



That's a proven effect, without which one could not ride stable.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:12 PM   #2298
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The discussion is not about CG, weight distribution, or gyroscope effect. It is about whether different cylinder layouts, by virtue of the forces involved, affect traction at the rear contact patch.

There is nothing about an opposed, parallel, v-twin, etc. layout that inherently is going to have any effect on the traction at the rear tire.

The effect of firing order on rear traction - whether the pulses come unevenly (sometimes called big bang) or evenly has been debated over the years quite fiercely. What I find telling is that big-bang comes into and out of favor - some years its the hot thing and others not. I don't think anybody has ever proven that it works better, but subjectively some riders seem to like it in road racing. In any even, whatever effect it has is probably only at the very limits of traction during road racing.

Bottom line - on the S10 and the type of riding it is going to see, I don't think the parallel twin has any traction advantage (or disadvantage) over any other layout. Likewise the 270-deg crank.

People make a big deal out of engine layout, but it is mostly a packaging issue, not a performance issue.

- Mark
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:30 PM   #2299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
The discussion is not about CG, weight distribution, or gyroscope effect. It is about whether different cylinder layouts, by virtue of the forces involved, affect traction at the rear contact patch.

There is nothing about an opposed, parallel, v-twin, etc. layout that inherently is going to have any effect on the traction at the rear tire.

The effect of firing order on rear traction - whether the pulses come unevenly (sometimes called big bang) or evenly has been debated over the years quite fiercely. What I find telling is that big-bang comes into and out of favor - some years its the hot thing and others not. I don't think anybody has ever proven that it works better, but subjectively some riders seem to like it in road racing. In any even, whatever effect it has is probably only at the very limits of traction during road racing.

Bottom line - on the S10 and the type of riding it is going to see, I don't think the parallel twin has any traction advantage (or disadvantage) over any other layout. Likewise the 270-deg crank.

People make a big deal out of engine layout, but it is mostly a packaging issue, not a performance issue.

- Mark
We're just passing on our information and experiences, do with it whatever you like, these are no big secrets, just common practice among engine designers and people that build bikes.
Discuss it, debate it ignore it, or keep it in your backhead, or just assume we''re crazy, lol
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:31 PM   #2300
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Here I thought those 270 degree cranks were to provide us Yanks that potato-potato exhaust sound we all love.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:44 PM   #2301
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Does all this mean, when you rotate your right hand in a rearward direction, the rear wheel will revolve faster?
The amount of wheel spin is usually influenced by the complex mechanism that controls the movement of the right hand. The signal comes from the mechanism that is inside the helmet that also steers and balances the bike.

There are times when you have to loosen the rear wheel to steer. I do not wanr some computer telling me that I cannot break the rear free when I know I need to. Just more crap to fail.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:29 AM   #2302
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
There is nothing about an opposed, parallel, v-twin, etc. layout that inherently is going to have any effect on the traction at the rear tire.

The effect of firing order on rear traction - whether the pulses come unevenly (sometimes called big bang) or evenly has been debated over the years quite fiercely.
Go and *RIDE* the different firingsequences, then you will grasp the difference, it is really such a difference it is hard to believe, take a 360 TDM, and then a 270, and just feel how the latter really pulls the whole bike into the tarmac so to say.

What magazine write about, so be it, they write all kind of hosanna stories about bikes who drop out valves, wreck rear drives like they are marshmallows at a compfire :-)

There is no substitute for experience, so borrow a bike with a standerd Twin, and a "big Bang", because talking about it can go on for ages, like talking about ABS, but after a anti-slip course the debate will be over, ABS lenghtens yor brake ditance...
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:36 AM   #2303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatwhacker
There are times when you have to loosen the rear wheel to steer. I do not wanr some computer telling me that I cannot break the rear free when I know I need to. Just more crap to fail.
That's why Yamaha has taken the "no interference" route, you yourself decide what kind of help you want, or even no help if you don't want it, just lock the rear to help it into a drift, and then whack on the throttle SM style.

And if your just the occasional cyclist who wants a Mucho-Macho style bike which counteracts almost all driver error, you can opt for complete rider assistance :-)

Which is a good thing even for experienced riders, then after a nice bit of bridleway bashing a lot of tired riders crash'm on the homestretch due to lack of energylevels in the brain (BTDT)
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:14 AM   #2304
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Well, the full-scale big bang and unevenly spaced firing sequences is more of GP territory, I was referring to basic far apart spaced pulsing power of twins or monos or yamaha twins etc. comparing to il4 let say. It does not effect amount of torque delivered to wheel approximated over cycle, it affects how and when peaks of torque delivered.

Hookeniggy, what I mean - this all pulses story is not same with mentioned vector of some forces pointing down, this is very different story and on forces point - quite frankly I do not understand really well how inertia forces story will apply to 260 kg bike but it certainly got me hooked and I will dig some more just for my own interest.


I do not have that much experience offroad, I am only beginner there, but I am probably quite experienced rider on paved roads and every switch I did between il4 "classic" engined bikes to monos or twins proved to be huge difference. On my Firestorm which is not that much of racer you literally can feel rear stepping out and have time to correct it, also you can use totally different approach to taking corners as rear definitely regains grip better than CBR did. Same goes for my DR800 - sometimes I catch myself going way beyond point of sliding out I would have had on CBR and I can feel wheel hooks again. There is no "drama" of sudden totall loss of rear grip I unfortunately had on my other bikes with il4 (ended up in ditch).

Unevenly spaced pulses vs. evenly spaced - that I can't comment on, yet have to ride some of new big-bang like bikes to understand that.

Anyway, all this is talk I think only way to feel or decide is to ride Superten :) no point of arguing I think :)
It's kinda weird we do not hear any proper reviews of the bike yet, I would expect someone like Performance Bikes journos to get their hands on one already. Hmmm....
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Old 04-21-2010, 04:53 AM   #2305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman
It's kinda weird we do not hear any proper reviews of the bike yet, I would expect someone like Performance Bikes journos to get their hands on one already. Hmmm....

This week the lucky ones who will travel with Helder to Marrakech are announced, i think the non-disclore will be lifted then too.

My thumbs are getting raw of all the Thumbing :-)
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:13 AM   #2306
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Not strictly Super Tenere related but I came across this pic today and just had to show it. When you think back through all the bikes you've owned over many years there is always a handful (or maybe just a couple) that you would pay through the nose for if you were ever to come across a brand new one still in the crate. Here is such a bike. I purchased this exact bike back in 1986 and would have to say that IMO, Yamaha have gone backwards in their big single design ever since. This bike was rated at 52hp, weighed about 150kg and had yards of quality suspension travel. Modern day F650 Dakars, KLR650's and DR650's would not rate against this bike! While the electric start took care of firing the beast into life, the 23L tank was good for over 400km, the bike handled the twisties very well and in the bush, it's trail riding poise was among the best in it's day. I suspect it would still outrun and out handle it's present day competition.
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Y...986_XT600Z.jpg
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:50 AM   #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlybear
Not strictly Super Tenere related but I came across this pic today and just had to show it. When you think back through all the bikes you've owned over many years there is always a handful (or maybe just a couple) that you would pay through the nose for if you were ever to come across a brand new one still in the crate. Here is such a bike. I purchased this exact bike back in 1986 and would have to say that IMO, Yamaha have gone backwards in their big single design ever since. This bike was rated at 52hp, weighed about 150kg and had yards of quality suspension travel. Modern day F650 Dakars, KLR650's and DR650's would not rate against this bike! While the electric start took care of firing the beast into life, the 23L tank was good for over 400km, the bike handled the twisties very well and in the bush, it's trail riding poise was among the best in it's day. I suspect it would still outrun and out handle it's present day competition.
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Y...986_XT600Z.jpg
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I love this model and always wanted one in my garage as it is real piece of history and very handy machine too, but in never was even near 52 bhp (even Yamaha rated it 45 or 46 depending on market) and had dry weuight of about 165 kg (quoting Yamaha) but real wet weight well above 180 kg.
About 5 kg could be saved by changing exhaust...but that's it.
It had quite basic suspension and brillian reliability.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:50 AM   #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Go and *RIDE* the different firingsequences, then you will grasp the difference, it is really such a difference it is hard to believe, take a 360 TDM, and then a 270, and just feel how the latter really pulls the whole bike into the tarmac so to say.

What magazine write about, so be it, they write all kind of hosanna stories about bikes who drop out valves, wreck rear drives like they are marshmallows at a compfire :-)

There is no substitute for experience, so borrow a bike with a standerd Twin, and a "big Bang", because talking about it can go on for ages, like talking about ABS, but after a anti-slip course the debate will be over, ABS lenghtens yor brake ditance...
Oh huge difference, the poweroutput's like an electric motor, almost boring, hard to get the rearend to slide, have to really transfer my weight to the front end to be able to steer with the rearend, but just to make it more understandable, the isue about rotating or centrifugal masses or what not, just a typical really understandable everyday example for who-ever has an older car with a V8 popped the hood, and filled up the rad with prestone while the kid wife or nextdoorbuddy's stepping on the gas what happens, you see the engine move sideways in the enginemounts???
Of course bikes don't have enginemounts,or rubbers, they are mounted solid in the frames, in most cases, just like racecars and dragcars, they have heavier springs on one side of their vehicle to compensate for the extra amount of momentum thats transfered to that side of their vehicle during their run, especially during take off! yes the entire vehicle wants to spin around its own crank!
Yamaha's new YZ 450 has its cylinder angled backwards so the bike will turn easier, look at the old GP bikes, the lighter "Schnappsglas" clas, 50 ccm , the 80 ccm's and even the 125's Garelli's, Kreidler's, Mototrans Ducati's, Yamathi's, Moto Villa's all had their cylinders angled forward for a reason, y'all know the answer...
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:55 AM   #2309
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And the hosanna story's about the magazine editors,......
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:49 AM   #2310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlybear
This bike was rated at 52hp, weighed about 150kg and had yards of quality suspension travel.

Nah i see you are still totally in love, but the data you state are kind of rosy :-)

The second Tenere weighed almost 180 kilo's and had only 44 HP *on paper*

Filled up it was almost 195 kilo's and at the wheel only 38 HP remained, but again, it's Yamaha power, more midrange torque, allthough the TT600 actually run even smoother the first builds.

And don't underestimate the lenghts modern suspension has gone...

But it certainly is the most beautiful Tenere, after this it became much more a streetbike with to much plastic.
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