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Old 11-01-2008, 09:21 AM   #256
slide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul thompson
I still can't figure out why Japan inc. is dithering about the big D/S market. Sports tourers are out and big trail style bikes are solid sellers. Look at how many guys have gone from VFR style machines to GS'S and Tigers.
Also, the age demographic is a factor. If a manufacturer can give us reliability, performance and quality in an upright machine, then that will sell in significant numbers.
I would suppose it's a pool issue. The pool of cruiser buyers is huge while the pool of d/s is small. The Japanese are NOT boutique manufacturers. They either expect a high volume sales / year like Zook sees with the Gixxer or they expect very long product runs like Yam and the Max, Zook the DRZ or Kwak and the KLR. What KTM or BMW considers a successful model run wouldn't interest the Japanese, apparently.

Also the few tries at bigger trailies the Japanese tried failed or fizzled. Would guys who are BMW or KTM sorts abandon their marques for Honda if Honda made a real competition bike? I'm not sure and in fact doubt many would. So Japan would have to recruit new buyers (more or less).

Look how long it took for metric cruisers to become pop given the HUGE price diff between them and H-D. So winning over brand identity even with a price difference is tough. Now lacking that huge price differential - I suppose the Japanese see it as a wasted effort.
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Old 11-01-2008, 09:40 AM   #257
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a friend of mine told me he could look at "the thing". just for few minutes. but he confirmed that in Eicma Yamaha will show the new tenerè 1200.
115 hp, the bike that yamaha will show has allu cases.
and, great thing, 21" front wheel.
In two days we will know everyting!!!!
stay tuned with milan eicma show!!!

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Old 11-01-2008, 10:29 AM   #258
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Now that would be good news, however surprised he would know the bhp from a quick glance at the bike
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:35 AM   #259
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he said he read the paper for press presentation.
For the style he said: forget the xt660 tenere. it's not that one with bigger engine.
anyway we, me too, have only two more days to doscver the true new big yamaha
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:16 AM   #260
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Of course I'm welcoming Yamaha into the Big Trailie camp but 112 bhp? Unless there is a switch to soften the delivery, that may be more of a handicap than a benefit if you really ever do take this off pavement. 112 bhp will spin a tire on pavement. It'll be uncontrollable on dirt except for the most skillful riders.

Well, it's nice to see a new entrant no matter what it's like and from one of the Big Four - it's doubly welcome.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:43 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slide
Of course I'm welcoming Yamaha into the Big Trailie camp but 112 bhp? Unless there is a switch to soften the delivery, that may be more of a handicap than a benefit if you really ever do take this off pavement.
Everybody is going there.. the moto morini gran passo has 120, the new KTM Adventure R (should be presented in Milan) will have the 990cc from the SM model with 115 hp, the future ktm 1190 (end 2009) won't have less then that..

Aprilia is preparing new bikes with the new 750cc of the dorsoduro that can be taken to 1200cc and 130 hp... they spoke of a naked, a maxi supermotard and a big trailie like the Caponord..

The triumph tiger is not a Trailie but the concept is similar..

Do you really think BMW will waith longer for a new GS? the 1200 was presented in 2004 and had a restyling this year, will not be long for a new model with more then 105 hp...

Now the question you should ask is if you yanks are gonna get any..?
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Old 11-01-2008, 01:00 PM   #262
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The added hp implies how seldom these big trailies are actually used on anything but pavement. For each video on this site of GS12's bumping down rocky paths, there are 100 GS's which are used identically to a Harley- Davidson cruiser bike. It's like SUV's here in the US. Some folks put them in 4 wheel drive when they enter an unpaved parking lot. To them, that's an SUV adventure.

I am hearing rumors of a GS12.5 which will, as you say, have more than 105 bhp. No doubt it too will sell out motivating BMW to make a GS13 and then 13.5.

Yeah, we in the US seem to miss a lot of interesting bikes other places see. I think I'm out of step with the Harley crowd who gets all worked up about the latest color scheme in the Fat Slob Droopy Bob model Soft Ass Harley-Davidson. Owell.
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Old 11-01-2008, 01:32 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by slide
Of course I'm welcoming Yamaha into the Big Trailie camp but 112 bhp? Unless there is a switch to soften the delivery, that may be more of a handicap than a benefit if you really ever do take this off pavement. 112 bhp will spin a tire on pavement. It'll be uncontrollable on dirt except for the most skillful riders.

Well, it's nice to see a new entrant no matter what it's like and from one of the Big Four - it's doubly welcome.
Must admit I'm a bit disappointed to hear that it's going to be a 1200. I was hoping that one of the japanese manufacturers would take on the F800GS - an updated Africa Twin/Super Tenere or a lighter more dirt orientated Wee Strom. I'm afraid a 1200 is just too big and knowing Yamaha it'll probably be a bit pricey too (ie no change from £8000).

Honda will be releasing something new in Milan, not that I'm not holding my breath for a Africa Twin replacement, but a new big single might not be out of the question, now they've stopped building the FMX and XR650R. A new 250 trailbike and 250 v-twin have also been rumoured but these don't really interest me. All pure speculation on the part of MCN - who believes anything they say anyway! They'll probably just release some new graphics and a giant scooter. ;o)

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Old 11-01-2008, 01:56 PM   #264
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I can't say what the market is like in Europe, but in the US it's very fractured. There isn't a large identifiable group of folks to market a d/s or adventure bike to who may be unloosed from their current rides. You've got folks who buy generation after generation of BMW GS - those guys are a very tough sell no matter what you produce. Then you have the rest of the bunch who can't agree on even the definition of a d/s or adventure bike.

Frex, there is a large component who think a barely street legal KTM is a perfect d/s. Others move off to the DRZ. Then you got your KLR crowd. Each heavier bike bunch thinks the lighter bikes too uncomfortable and the heavier too cumbersome. Just to take one series, the KTM guys think the DRZ poorly suspended and too heavy, the DRZ guys think the KLR poorly suspended and too heavy, the KLR guys think the Wee poorly suspended and too heavy, the Wee guys think the GS poorly suspended and too heavy. I can repeat looking downward too.

If you were Honda marketing looking at the US (Europe too?) what would you tell Engineering to design and Production to build? Beats me.
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Old 11-01-2008, 02:02 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beep
Must admit I'm a bit disappointed to hear that it's going to be a 1200. I was hoping that one of the japanese manufacturers would take on the F800GS - an updated Africa Twin/Super Tenere or a lighter more dirt orientated Wee Strom. I'm afraid a 1200 is just too big and knowing Yamaha it'll probably be a bit pricey too (ie no change from £8000).
I sort of agree, but since Yamaha has a 660 dirt-oriented single, it makes little sense for them to cannibalize sales of this bike by producing a 800. If they do something (and my bet is that they won't or if they do it will be Euro only) I think they'll have the R1200GS squarely in their sites - this is the bike that continues to be an absolute cash cow for BMW... this is the bike they want to steal big sales from.

I always have mixed feelings about the trade-off between a more dirt-capable 600-800cc adventure bike vs. a more pavement-oriented 1200cc adventure bike. The smaller bike can seem to be the perfect compromise, but it can also seem like it is in a no-man's land: not light enough, crashable enough, cheap enough, and disposable enough to challenge it by doing serious dirt, yet not big enough to shoulder a big touring load and be really comfortable for long road trips. As much as people think they're going to do serious backwoods riding, most of us doing adventure touring sorta gravitate to the 90-10 thing with forest service roads about the worst dirt we're willing to tackle all loaded up while we're 500 miles from home and 50 miles from the nearest ER. For this sort of thing, a GS is perfect. For anything more serious, I'd want a smaller single like my DRZ.

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Old 11-01-2008, 02:24 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slide
the KTM guys think the DRZ poorly suspended and too heavy, the DRZ guys think the KLR poorly suspended and too heavy, the KLR guys think the Wee poorly suspended and too heavy, the Wee guys think the GS poorly suspended and too heavy. I can repeat looking downward too.
OMG...this is pure poetry! And each smaller guy thinks the heavier guy is an idiot for taking the bigger bike off road...
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Old 11-01-2008, 02:31 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudhen
OMG...this is pure poetry! And each smaller guy thinks the heavier guy is an idiot for taking the bigger bike off road...
....and then the heavier guy posts a pic of someone in Germany jumping a Munch over 50 cars and then splashing through a 10 meter deep mud puddle thinking that the post is a rebuttal of some sort.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:05 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slide
If you were Honda marketing looking at the US (Europe too?) what would you tell Engineering to design and Production to build? Beats me.
XR650R (or 700) with e-start, signals, a bagworthy subframe and an EPA cert.
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:04 AM   #269
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Well, we will see tomorrow.

Roll on!!
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Old 11-02-2008, 07:37 AM   #270
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well, seeing as the bike will be revealed tomorrow . i thought i may as well get a head start . it,s too heavy / it,s too light . hooray a 21 inch front wheel , booo , a 21 inch front wheel , the fuel tank,s too small , the fuel tank,s too large , the suspension is non adjustable / the suspension is too adjustable , it,s got wire wheel,s , hooray / it,s got cast wheel,s boo/hooray , the seat,s too high , the seat,s too low , why does,nt it have belt drive,shaft drive,chaindrive,plasma drive ! the paint scheme is terrible, the paint scheme is great , the price is too much , the price is too low , oh and just in case you thought i had missed something out ... WOW ! GREAT BIKE ! but of course they will never sell it in America . did i miss anything out ?
i have my finger,s crossed that it will be a great bike ...
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