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Old 02-21-2011, 11:06 AM   #7006
SpeedStar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the darth peach View Post
Pretty fun ride today….
The 2012







.
Peach, tell us more details about this ride. How did this come about? Is this gonna be your new ride?
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:38 AM   #7007
RogerJ
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Question Handlebar Vibrations XT1200Z What To Do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp View Post
Roger.

I will report on the Endurance bars and in fact my opinion on bar angles at a later stage soon, but first...

Entertain me by trying this "no cost" "very quick" "no damage" "easily reversible" trial...
1/ Remove both end weights.
2/ Remove both hand guards.
3/ Repeat test ride under the same test parameters and speeds. Concentrate on where you now feel the vibes in the rev range and if they are to a greater or lesser order of magnitude.
4/ Report your findings...



























Waiting - Waiting............................

Greg.

Hello Greg! After the getting stopped by the boys-in-blue yesterday and bailing until today......the test is now done. 170 kms paying close attention. Left the screws in the bar ends to have a hard spot to feel for the vibations and changes in them.

WITHOUT ENDWEIGHTS AND HANDGUARDS TEST:

The focus is on cruising speeds where the vibration that both Super Cruise and I are having the numbness and aches response from vibration, that is indicated 120 kph and above.

FIFTH GEAR:
Beginning at 120 kph indicated vibrations begin and increase up to 135 kph indicated where they get a little less. The worst point is at at 126 kph indicated and 4500 rpm where the vibrations are bad.

SIXTH GEAR:
Beginning at 120 kph indicated vibrations begin and increase up to 145 to 150 kph. After 150 kph the vibes get a little less bothersome, that is, from 5000 rpm and up. But vibrations are bad from about 4000 up to 4800 rpm.

OVERALL:

The vibration is worse without the endweights and handguards. The bad vibration range extends farther than with the endweights and handguards attached in terms of the rpm range and the indicated speed.

Hope this helps.

You mentioned that you would Report on the Endurance Bars and your opinion on bar angles. Would love to hear it. Have a bit of time crunch.

In two days, ie. on Wednesday I will be in the USA and be able to pick up bike stuff eg. Pro taper bar of a particular length, size and bend, risers etc. There is very little selection here in Mexico. So.......would like to take advantage of this chance.

In other words, I would appreciate what you think I should try next to resolve this problem to a more comfortable level. That is hand not going numb after 60-80 km and wrists aching.

More bar end weight? How much? Fill the bars with butyl rubber with lead shot near the bar ends inside the bar at the handgrips? If the OEM weights are 7 oz each. How about 14 oz total each side as a new figure, or, a slight bit more. At this point don't have electric grips. Are there any holes in the bar that need to be taped off if they are to be filled? Add a crossbar or not?

Should I be working with the OEM bar by adding dampening inside the bar and weight inside the handgrips? All with a view to keeping the OEM handguards, or, say Touratech's.

OR, leave the OEM bars as they are without fiddling with them and instead changing to a Pro Taper or other kind of handlebar such as SWM's Endurance Non-Shock bar?

Your considered opinion is much appreciated.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:58 PM   #7008
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I must say that vibration was somewhat subdued on today's ride in to work following the throttle sync I did yesterday. It's only a 15 min ride into work and I only got up to 115 kph briefly, but it is a positive sign nonetheless.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:30 PM   #7009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCruise View Post
I must say that vibration was somewhat subdued on today's ride in to work following the throttle sync I did yesterday. It's only a 15 min ride into work and I only got up to 115 kph briefly, but it is a positive sign nonetheless.
When you did the throttle bodies did you check them at rpm settings above idle, especially at rpm you are having problems with?

There may be an adjustment in the linkage that connects them and it can make a big difference at speed.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:04 PM   #7010
the darth peach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstrom View Post
DP, I have to say the S10 looks almost as good on you as the Tiger. So tell us, whad'ya think?

There's been talk, and videos (notably from Old Git Ray) about how easy the thing is to pick up. One of the Yamaha reps asked what I thought they should do to demo the bike... I said one thing you could do at the bike shows, without even starting the bike, would be to get some petit girls to pick it up off the ground. They didn't do it - I thought it was a great idea! But I guess their liablility insurance didn't cover it...

anyway, point being, I guess you didn't have occasion to pick it up, but how was it otherwise? Especially from a woman's perspective - cos I haven't noticed a single woman (or married ones either ) joining the S10 ranks yet, kinda wondering why? Seems a lot more suitable than the other big adv. bikes.

BTW - good pic for those shorter people asking "will it be too tall for me?". I see you're almost flat-footing it - you must be 5'6" or so?

Trevor
5'10" and almost flat footing it.
I did not, much to the dealers joy, have the chance to pick it up.

I'm still formulating an opinion..
Was very easy to ride though.
Def a twin and has a bit of vibration to it, but so did the Multi and so does the GS.
The overall ergo's were just fine... Good leg position for longer legs.
Very easy to maneuver standing on the pegs and doing tight U turns...
I didn't like the bike at all when I first jumped on, but as I started to play with it at really slow speeds I realized how well balanced the bike felt..
Zero fear of a drop, easy to get off the side stand, easy to roll on the throttle.
Not a 'smooth' as the tiger, but just different.
I had to ride with the other 1200 bikes in mind in it's class to give it a fair shake...

Did put it through the gears chasing my bike on the way home and was pleasantly surprised..
Not the quick accel of the multi, but it's also not claiming to have it...

Def not as bulky feeling as the GS and not the anchor dragging feeling of the Stelvio .
Felt closer to the multi or the KTM as far as over all rideability.
Nothing super impressive about the square lines, but really not a bad ride.

Would be nice to give it a try off the pave to feel the versatility of it.

Fortunately, I'm not really in the market for a new bike.
I'd probably still get another Tiger if I was, but the idea of cheaper repair/service bills and parts has entered my mind on more than one occasion......
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:20 AM   #7011
SuperCruise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_Palmer View Post
When you did the throttle bodies did you check them at rpm settings above idle, especially at rpm you are having problems with?

There may be an adjustment in the linkage that connects them and it can make a big difference at speed.
Yes I did and I did notice a bigger differential when at 4000 RPM in the order of 30mmHG, however as the throttle butterflies are on the same axis I don't see that any adjustment is possible. As far as I understand it, throttle syncing makes sure the airflow is the same at idle through the use of air bypass screws and that if that is set correctly each throttle will draw a similar amount of air for a given throttle position. Above idle, the vacuum differential of the bypass system becomes much less a contributer to airflow. As such, I'm not sure that this differential that I saw at higher RPM is something to be concerned about.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:31 AM   #7012
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You right!
when gets to 5000 then power goes flat, but just a bit, then I keep going up and bike is recovering....but to say that this is only happening when I accelerate really fast and not when I do it in a progressive way.
Anyway, the bike takes a bit to respond if I want to accelerate fast from 0 to 3000, after the 3000 is like someone said : "Ok, now you got all the power ready".
Someone said Tiger is more smooth and I agree, with this bike (ST) is more sharper when decelerating but if you just open gas just after decelerating...........you do an unexpected one wheel!!!!.

Don't get me wrong I like the ST but I am just pointing out things that I found while riding, that's all, I am being honest and I tell you I am not someone who just got the licence, since 14 to now (42) I have done 500,000 kms on bikes.
100,000 km with the Tiger 955 which I loved her so much...and the only thing that separated us was a nasty accident and here is when the ST comes to the front page of my life....
Ok,,things that I love about the ST :

I don't have to put any more oil in the chain.
I love not using the traction control, but is there.
Love the front lights.
Love the design.
Love the bike without the stickers.
Love doing unexpected "monos".
Love going just over 8000 rpm over a second, very loud!>
Love her cos is a Asian bike (close to Australia), low spare parts cost.
Love checking out BMW riders checking on the ST.
and love love love the bike off road (Tiger 955 is the worst)

that's all for now

cheers







Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
That could well be something to do with emissions - typically the [Euro] drive-by noise tests are done at a speed and in a gear which equates to around 5000rpm on a bike... perhaps the EFi backs off the ignition or something there to minimise the noise and emissions outputs... it happens on some other EFi bikes too, it's like a flat spot, then you get full power again...



In my experience, OEM tyres tend to be whatever deal the manufacture has done with a tyre company x - Fortunately they wear out pretty quickly and you can change to your personal preference...



Hee hee - maybe you need to try a Ducati Multistrada?

Jx
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Old 02-22-2011, 04:42 AM   #7013
llamapacker
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Very nice review of the S10 DP.

I have been trying to gear up for missing the accel and sharp handling of the MTS12.

The parts/service and more docile ride will be more to my liking in the long run tho.
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Old 02-22-2011, 06:25 AM   #7014
japako
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Thanks for the write ups. It is nice to hear what others think about the bike.
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Old 02-22-2011, 06:57 AM   #7015
tremor38
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Ohhh! How does The Peach get her hands (and butt) on an S10? At a 'dealer' in CA???.. what,what,what?! Nice pic ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by the darth peach View Post
Pretty fun ride today….
The 2012




.

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Old 02-22-2011, 07:22 AM   #7016
Roadscum
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Nice review D P, and your photography is ....... well OUTSTANDING!!

Thank you.

Rergards, Paul
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:49 AM   #7017
markjenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCruise View Post
Yes I did and I did notice a bigger differential when at 4000 RPM in the order of 30mmHG, however as the throttle butterflies are on the same axis I don't see that any adjustment is possible. As far as I understand it, throttle syncing makes sure the airflow is the same at idle through the use of air bypass screws and that if that is set correctly each throttle will draw a similar amount of air for a given throttle position. Above idle, the vacuum differential of the bypass system becomes much less a contributer to airflow. As such, I'm not sure that this differential that I saw at higher RPM is something to be concerned about.
You understand how it works....the bypass air "overlays" whatever differential is established by the main throttle valves. As such, it has limited tuning ability to adjust sync when the engine is above idle.

You could try tuning out the 4K RPM differential using the bypass screws and see what happens. You'll likely be more shaky at idle, but it might make the bike smoother at speed. But my guess is that the limited range of the bypass screws won't be enough to have much effect on a significant differential at higher RPM. Is your 4K difference significant enough to be causing excessive vibes? Dunno.

I have the service manual (but not an S10) and I don't see any procedure for adjusting TB sync beyond the bypass screws. I bet this is because these are electronic throttles and the sync is done by the ECU noting the positions of the butterfiles by independent throttle position sensors and then electronically matching them. There are electronic procedures using the diagnostic mode of the instrument cluster to adjust the "Throttle Position Sensor" and "Accelerator Position Sensor" but I don't understand exactly what they're doing - they say to look for numbers like "9-20" and "9-25" on the display which seems odd. From the diagrams, it sure looks like you're adjusting the same sort of sensor on first the right, then the left TB - perhaps one is the reference and Yamaha calls it the TPS and the other is relative so Yamaha calls it the Accelerator.

- Mark
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:36 PM   #7018
SuperCruise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
You understand how it works....the bypass air "overlays" whatever differential is established by the main throttle valves. As such, it has limited tuning ability to adjust sync when the engine is above idle.

You could try tuning out the 4K RPM differential using the bypass screws and see what happens. You'll likely be more shaky at idle, but it might make the bike smoother at speed. But my guess is that the limited range of the bypass screws won't be enough to have much effect on a significant differential at higher RPM. Is your 4K difference significant enough to be causing excessive vibes? Dunno.

I have the service manual (but not an S10) and I don't see any procedure for adjusting TB sync beyond the bypass screws. I bet this is because these are electronic throttles and the sync is done by the ECU noting the positions of the butterfiles by independent throttle position sensors and then electronically matching them. There are electronic procedures using the diagnostic mode of the instrument cluster to adjust the "Throttle Position Sensor" and "Accelerator Position Sensor" but I don't understand exactly what they're doing - they say to look for numbers like "9-20" and "9-25" on the display which seems odd. From the diagrams, it sure looks like you're adjusting the same sort of sensor on first the right, then the left TB - perhaps one is the reference and Yamaha calls it the TPS and the other is relative so Yamaha calls it the Accelerator.

- Mark
I don't have my service manual on me right now to show you the picture of the throttle body, but I can confirm that the butterflies on both throttles share the same driving shaft and hence are not independently adjustable.

The way the fly by wire system works with this bike is that when the rider twists the throttle, they are twisting a separate shaft to the throttle butterfly shaft which drives the accelerator position sensor. The accelerator position sensor feeds this information to the ECU, which takes other inputs such as temp, TCS, speed, and gear and creates its own desired throttle position which could be different to what the rider is inputting.

The ECU feeds this throttle position signal to a stepper motor on the throttle body which drives the throttle shaft, and hence both butterflies, to the desired position. The desired position is confirmed back to the ECU via a throttle position sensor on the end of the throttle shaft. Sounds convoluted, but its the only way a system like TCS can do its stuff to override your ambitious inputs.

I had toyed with the idea of adjusting the sync to be balanced at 4000 RPM, but as you say the adjustment should be having its greatest effect at idle when the butterflies are closed and the service manual requires the adjustment is done at warm idle.

In any case, maybe it's wishful thinking, but I have not noticed as much vibration and haven't had tuning fork hands on my last couple of rides since doing the throttle sync and, as suggested by someone else just recently, keeping my elbows tucked in when I ride. As such, I'm going to just leave it unless I do experience the problem again.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:02 PM   #7019
markjenn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCruise View Post
I don't have my service manual on me right now to show you the picture of the throttle body, but I can confirm that the butterflies on both throttles share the same driving shaft and hence are not independently adjustable.
Interesting. But I still wonder if there is some way to make adjustments between the butterflies - it would be hard for me to believe that Yamaha expects two separate TB's to be assembled with an external linkage between them without any way to tune the final assembly for part and assembly tolerances.

- Mark
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:31 PM   #7020
A Knight Who Says Ni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCruise View Post
The way the fly by wire system works with this bike is that when the rider twists the throttle, they are twisting a separate shaft to the throttle butterfly shaft which drives the accelerator position sensor. The accelerator position sensor feeds this information to the ECU, which takes other inputs such as temp, TCS, speed, and gear and creates its own desired throttle position which could be different to what the rider is inputting.

jesus, all I wanted to do was give it some gas to pass that car.
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