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Old 04-07-2011, 10:36 AM   #7741
Goldie05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
~

If you are thinking the stock muffler weighs a ton, and that you can save a lot of weight changing to an aftermarket one, you might to check this post:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13367170&postcount=5

Where Wasp/Greg himself says...

Just FYI...

Dallara

~
I agree with you, not much savings in weight and not worth it for that reason IMO
Sound? that's another story

I'm curious if you or anyone in this forum would know by loosing let's say 10lbs on any particular bike what the difference in 0 to 60 would be?

I know there's too many differences between bikes, engines and so on but let's take the Tenere weight, 100+ HP and a 160lbs rider, would the 0-60 or 1/4 mile vary that much?

There's got to be some kind of formula and since you were involved in racing maybe you know

I'm curious because so many riders give that excuse as the reason why they boght a new pipe
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:50 AM   #7742
dcstrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldie05 View Post
I'm curious if you or anyone in this forum would know by loosing let's say 10lbs on any particular bike what the difference in 0 to 60 would be?

I know there's too many differences between bikes, engines and so on but let's take the Tenere weight, 100+ HP and a 160lbs rider, would the 0-60 or 1/4 mile vary that much?

There's got to be some kind of formula and since you were involved in racing maybe you know
I don't know if there's a formula, but if you look at MotoGP you'll see Danny Pedrosa often gets lightning starts and is able to out-accelerate most others out of corners. Bikes all weigh about the same, but Pedrosa, at 49kg, is 20-25kg lighter than other riders. So difference is definitely there in acceleration, no so much in top speed.

I think for the S10 there is not a significant amount of weight to be saved in replacing the muffler. The stock V-Strom exhaust is much heavier, and mounted high, so more gains to be had by replacing it.

That said, I can't see too many places to prune weight off the S10, so exhaust would probably be one of the easiest. For me I'd only do it if there were other advantages as well, like fuel economy and/or power. None of the current systems have demonstrated that so far as I know.

Trevor
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:54 AM   #7743
Dallara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyQ View Post

Yes I know there is not a lot of weight to be saved but every little bit counts and why stop at the muffler. I am sure there is a lot of un-necesary junk that could be removed, first and foremost any emission crap they tack on it. EVAP system went on both my B-King and Bandit 1250, you'd be suprised how much that crap weighs.

True enough. I pulled the EVAP cannister, etc. on my Ducati Hypermotard S, and pulled the silly, heavy, high-mounted stock underseat exhaust, etc. to exchange it for a low-mounted QD exhaust system to drop some mass and lower the CG...





But that was on a bike that was light to begin with (390 lbs), and now weighs less than 370 lbs thanks to other changes.

OTOH, the Super Tenere weighs 575 lbs or so stock, so dropping only 7 or 8 lbs is not really that significant percentage-wise. And if one starts adding things like skid plates, crash bars, hard bags, etc. that kind of weight will quickly be offset.

Understand, it's your bike and you certainly should mod it anyway you like. My only point was that if you're trying to make an S-10 into a lightweight by changing the exhaust you might be disappointed.

Just for the record, right now my plan for my S-10 is to keep the stock muffler - I want this bike to be quiet - but change out the stock header pipes/catalytic converter for some cat-less pipes, simply because I'm not found of catalytic converters and the excessive heat they produce. Not to mention the flow restriction they cause. Every time I've pulled the cat on a bike I've gotten way less heat coming off the bike and better, crisper throttle response.

Just my two cents... YMMV.

Dallara



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Old 04-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #7744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
~




True enough. I pulled the EVAP cannister, etc. on my Ducati Hypermotard S, and pulled the silly, heavy, high-mounted stock underseat exhaust, etc. to exchange it for a low-mounted QD exhaust system to drop some mass and lower the CG...





But that was on a bike that was light to begin with (390 lbs), and now weighs less than 370 lbs thanks to other changes.

OTOH, the Super Tenere weighs 575 lbs or so stock, so dropping only 7 or 8 lbs is not really that significant percentage-wise. And if one starts adding things like skid plates, crash bars, hard bags, etc. that kind of weight will quickly be offset.

Understand, it's your bike and you certainly should mod it anyway you like. My only point was that if you're trying to make an S-10 into a lightweight by changing the exhaust you might be disappointed.

Just for the record, right now my plan for my S-10 is to keep the stock muffler - I want this bike to be quiet - but change out the stock header pipes/catalytic converter for some cat-less pipes, simply because I'm not found of catalytic converters and the excessive heat they produce. Not to mention the flow restriction they cause. Every time I've pulled the cat on a bike I've gotten way less heat coming off the bike and better, crisper throttle response.

Just my two cents... YMMV.

Dallara



~
I don't plan to change the S10 pipe right off the bat unless a good deal comes my way by chance. I will not be adding stuff onto it either. OEM bags and that is about it. As for weight savings on my racebikes that is my first priority. I have a Akro full TI system with carbon can on my current 600 and it weighs next to nothing I only weigh 150 lbs so I have always had an advantage in that department. My current racebike is keyless since that junk served no purpose and of course it weighed something Everything that was not essential to making it operate quickly on a track is gone and I mean gone. I will be looking for things to delete on the S10, it is simply who I am. I want a skid plate but it weighs something so I will have to keep in mind exactly what I intend to do with this bike which will be pavement all the time. No crash bars!! too much weight.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:29 AM   #7745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldie05 View Post

I agree with you, not much savings in weight and not worth it for that reason IMO
Sound? that's another story

I'm curious if you or anyone in this forum would know by loosing let's say 10lbs on any particular bike what the difference in 0 to 60 would be?

I know there's too many differences between bikes, engines and so on but let's take the Tenere weight, 100+ HP and a 160lbs rider, would the 0-60 or 1/4 mile vary that much?

There's got to be some kind of formula and since you were involved in racing maybe you know

I'm curious because so many riders give that excuse as the reason why they boght a new pipe



Hmmmmm... Well, lets see...

Yamaha says the S-10 weighs 575 lbs, IIRC. They say that's "wet weight", but we don't if that means with just fork oil, coolant, engine oil, etc, or also includes fuel... And if so, how much fuel? Half a tank? Full?

But lets just say that's with half a tank of fuel (3 gallons, which since gasoline weighs about 6 lbs a gallon would be about 18 lbs of that 575), what else do we have to add to get it rolling on the road? The rider, of course, and you suggested one that weighs 160 lbs. So what we have right there is 575 + 160 = 735 lbs, depending of course on whether you just had lunch or not, and what it was.

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if you change mufflers, and the new, trick one weighs... hmmmm... lets say 7.35 lbs less than the stocker, you are only saving 1% of the total vehicle weight. Logic might suggest your rate of acceleration would be improved by 1%, but that's not necessarily the case. In fact, if you were to do a number of back-to-back comparisons I honestly doubt if you could get any measurable, consistent improvement (providing the power remained the same).

And let's not forget that if you fill that tank up to full, adding another 3 gallons, you just not only negated that weight loss of the pipe, but added some more weight, high up, as well. And needless to say, the bigger the rider the less percentage weight loss you get by changing pipes. For instance, a 300 lbs rider on a 575 lbs S-10 would only get a 0.84% improvement. Add some hard bags, a skid plate, crash bars, a tank bag, tail pack, and some gear packed in the bags, etc. and percentage becomes even more and more negligible.

As for the aforementioned MotoGP reference... It's been proven time and time again that having a lighter rider is not necessarily an advantage, but instead a compromise. A lighter rider may get advantages in acceleration, braking, and maybe even in tire wear, but he also is usually not as strong physically as larger riders, and as such probably has to expend more energy to alter the bikes path in numerous situations. He also has to lean the bike over farther to achieve the same corner arc at any given speed.

If you look close in the premier classes (Superbike, 500 GP, and MotoGP) over the years you will see that more often than not it is the relatively average sized riders that prevail with championships... Perhaps because, as with most things, they are the best compromise in the largest performance envelope.

Again, just my two cents... YMMV.

Dallara



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Old 04-07-2011, 11:42 AM   #7746
Goldie05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
~

Hmmmmm... Well, lets see...

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that if you change mufflers, and the new, trick one weighs... hmmmm... lets say 7.35 lbs less than the stocker, you are only saving 1% of the total vehicle weight. Logic might suggest your rate of acceleration would be improved by 1%, but that's not necessarily the case. In fact, if you were to do a number of back-to-back comparisons I honestly doubt if you could get any measurable, consistent improvement (providing the power remained the same).


Again, just my two cents... YMMV.

Dallara

~

I knew you would have a good answer, thanks

So basically the next guy I hear saying I just saved 10 pounds on my exhaust and my bike feels so much lighter and faster

I'm just going to smile and say, cool, my bike will be right behind yours

unless he is riding a little scooter and just saved 50% of the weight in any case I will be way in front of him
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:52 AM   #7747
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True fellas, take it from a guy who changes the cans on every bike I've owned. Your only doing it for the music and the visual. The ass dyno will never feel a hp increase or weight difference. Certainly not on a bike a big as the S10.
My experience anyway
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:14 PM   #7748
Chris618
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I heard somewhere that losing 7lbs = 1hp gain. Not sure if it's true, but I heard it when I was RR at Loudon, NH.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:33 PM   #7749
Dallara
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Something's missing...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportrider View Post

I heard somewhere that losing 7lbs = 1hp gain. Not sure if it's true, but I heard it when I was RR at Loudon, NH.

In what aerodynamic configuration? Truck? Car? Cruiser? Naked bike? Road racer? LSR vehicle?

Aero drag increases with velocity, so you can't just come up with a LBS = HP equation.

Let's not forget, too... That horsepower actually doesn't exist, but is actually only a mathematical construct attempting to equate the ability of the engine to do work over a period of time...


Torque X RPM = HP
5252


(torque times rpm, divided by 5252, equals hp)

BTW, that's why on a dyno chart the HP and Torque curves always cross at 5252 RPM, and why with engines that don't rev as high as 5252 the curves never cross.

You can directly measure torque, though the methods differ. That's one reason why different type dynos (accelerometers, water-brakes, etc.) produce such different results.

Just FYI...

Dallara



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Old 04-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #7750
markjenn
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Dallara, I'm in agreement with the gist of your argument (that the small weight saving swapping mufflers probably isn't noticeable), but you can only carry this sort of argument so far. There are differences in how weight is carried on motorcycle - dead weight on the bike vs. rider weight, unsprung vs. sprung, location, etc.

As an extreme example, almost any bicyclist can tell a BIG difference in riding a 17-lb bike vs. a 22-lb bike even though the 5-lb difference is only 2% or so of the total vehicle weight with rider. It's the reason some spend almost insane amounts of money to buy bicycle parts that are a few grams lighter.

In the end, there is no weight that "doesn't matter" - it all matters, just to varying degrees. I wouldn't spend $500 extra for a pipe to save 3-lbs of weight, but OTOH, the weight savings are enough that I think it is a benefit I'd consider in the overall picture. In the end, no single thing on our machines is all-important by itself, but significant weight reductions are made by lots of little weight reductions.

And just to let everyone know where I'm coming from, I'm likely leaving my S10 exhaust system dead stock and it has nothing to do with weight. I like quiet, I like what cats do for emissions control, I like not worrying about any warranty issues, and I'm cheap and don't like spending ridiculous amounts of money for what I view as one of the least cost-effective performance modifications you can make to a motorcycle.

- Mark
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:56 PM   #7751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Hmmmmm... Well, lets see...

Yamaha says the S-10 weighs 575 lbs, IIRC. They say that's "wet weight", but we don't if that means with just fork oil, coolant, engine oil, etc, or also includes fuel... And if so, how much fuel? Half a tank? Full?

~
Link thread is your friend.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630631

Where you will find
Actual Measured weights of a the XT1200, GS, GSA, KTM990

Hmmmmm... Well, lets see...
S10 268Kg measured, stock full of fuel.
GSA Actual weight: Fully fueled: 273kg's
GS Actual weight: Fully fueled: 242kg's
KTM 990 Adv Actual weight (Wet): 240kg's

All on the same set of scales.

Cheers
Graham
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:38 PM   #7752
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Don't have a full face helmet, have 2 x schuberth C3 though...



Don't have a pic of the different lid configuration, here's a web pic



To be honest I find the lid configuration pretty useless. If you could press a button to open it fully and another button to open it partially it would rock. Now you have to open the lid fully, change 2 tabs (and try not to break your fingers in the process, they are very hard to move), close the lid, and now it's in partial opening mode. So yeah.
thank you. with the help of google indexing this pic should be helpful long into the future.

I recently had the oportunity to check out a Hepco Becker Gobi topcase, and my XL Arai would not fit. you couldn't close the lid.

givi trakker top case
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:29 PM   #7753
Dallara
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Cool2 Perhaps...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post

As an extreme example, almost any bicyclist can tell a BIG difference in riding a 17-lb bike vs. a 22-lb bike even though the 5-lb difference is only 2% or so of the total vehicle weight with rider. It's the reason some spend almost insane amounts of money to buy bicycle parts that are a few grams lighter.

But no bicyclist I know of makes 100+ HP...

A healthy human can produce about 1.2 HP briefly, and sustain about 0.1 HP (http://www.web-cars.com/math/horsepower.html), while the best athletes can make up to 2.5 HP briefly, and sustain 0.3 HP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower). A human can actually produce a pretty prodigious amount of torque, but again only briefly, and that human can't rev very high, either.

Needless to say, a 2% difference in weight to something producing only 0.1 to 2.5 HP is much more noticeable than a 1% difference to something producing 100+ HP...

I understand your point, Mark... But it's really apples to oranges. The Super Tenere was never intended to be a lightweight sports bike or racer, and you can experience the same performance "increase" on it due to the weight loss you get with an aftermarket pipe by simply not filling up the fuel tank the last gallon or so. No doubt one could start making magnesium, titanium, carbon fiber, etc. bits to sprinkle all over it, drill some holes, cut some brackets off, buy a lightweight battery, etc. for a Super Tenere and maybe drop 20, 30, maybe even 50 lbs, but in the end you'd still have a bike that weighed over 525 lbs and you would have spent a fortune...

And the performance gain would not justify the cost, at least in my book. Of course, YMMV.

Might even be less expensive to just buy a cheap, used sport bike for those days you wanted to strafe apexes and play road racer, *AND* a cheap, used dirt bike for bashing through the whoops and playing MX'er.

Dallara



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Old 04-07-2011, 04:43 PM   #7754
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..or..

Supercharge the S10 and buy lots of pies and wine.


Just a thought..
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:30 PM   #7755
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by paul thompson View Post
..or..

Supercharge the S10 and buy lots of pies and wine.


Just a thought..
Not a bad thought either. I would prefer eating pies than worrying about 0.5 seconds off the quarter. Just means I get to the pies 30 seconds later.

Anyway, I can see 20 years of RRRace bike marketing has taken it's toll. (and maybe lack of S10's leading to over-hypothesizing)

It's about the journey grasshoppers. I thought that's what ADV touring was about.

Cheers
Graham
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