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Old 10-15-2011, 11:04 AM   #9781
Mikef5000
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19" has infinitely more tire options available. To me, it was the only logical choice. A wasp 21" option will be a great alternative for the select few who desire such a beast.
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:08 AM   #9782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
21" is the better pure dirt wheel; 19" is a compromise between this and a 17" road wheel. Yamaha's wanted the S10 to be a GS competitor so they matched them with the same size wheel size. The main advantages of a bigger wheel are more stability to deal with deflections in dirt riding and better ability to surmount obstacles. Smaller wheels have more responsive pavement handling.

One issue with 21" wheels is that they're generally not tubeless-suitable and like the GS, the S10 was designed to mount tubeless tires. For a touring bike, I consider tubeless to be a hard-core requirement.

There may be a difference in load carrying capacity as you mention.

BTW, I doubt the outside diameters of 19" and 21" tires are "almost identical". The 110/80-19 on the front of the S10 has a nominal sidewall height of 88mm; for the 90/90-21 on the front of a KTM Adv, it's 81mm. That's a 7mm difference, while the wheel radius difference of 19" vs. 21" is 25.4mm.

- Mark
I just measured my DR650 21" front compared to the Super 10 19" front and find a difference of 1-1/4" or about 32 mm in diameter. I normally run 12 to 15 psi in the front of the DR when on nasty stuff and 36 psi on the ST, so with that in mind the effective radius should almost be the same because of the squashed or reduced radius of the 21" tire. For some reason the 21" on the lighter bike has less tendency to wash while in the soft stuff. Whether this is a weight or load factor or tire dia. factor or both I'm not sure.
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:10 AM   #9783
roarin calhoun
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Originally Posted by Mikef5000 View Post
19" has infinitely more tire options available. To me, it was the only logical choice. A wasp 21" option will be a great alternative for the select few who desire such a beast.
I been pounding over rocks with my Tenere & it does just dandy,but that 21" tyre wouldn't hurt anything in dirt. It might effect it's corner blasting ability on asphalt . As it is,the Tenere's lottsa fun doing that.Very tight & taught corner blasting. GREAT suspension. Much tougher than my old GS 1200 was . Always ran the GS suspension as tight as it'd go. Do that on the Tenere & rocks'll make their presence known hard which means the Tenere's suspension is more versatile...more options.
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:59 PM   #9784
Rema in Paluda
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Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Oh, I got lots of *BIKES*, Rema/R3B... Ducati's, Honda's, a Harley, some Kawasaki's, a bunch of CZ's... Oh, and a Yamaha Super Tenere, too.
yeah yeah thats why you are not riding them, and you can't let me ride your S10, really ?


Quote:
And I thought that was *YOU* in the red jacket in that picture above!
Didn't you know i was a sissy, i'm sorry you really thought i was a Redneck too, i am not...

But i now understand why you'r not posting pictures of yourself offroad it makes sense now, but don't you wory the day will comeyou'll be able to afford a S10 too when the come available second hand.

So now you have had your diversion dose for today,lets talk shop again okay my dear ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave6 View Post
OK experts.........should the XTZ1200 have come with 21" front wheel or not???? As the outside dia. of the 19" tire is almost identical to the outside dia. of the 21" tire. What is the advantage of either, in your opinion? I think they went with the 19" for the extra load carrying capacity of the deeper tire.
Nope it has all to do with Tire availability, in 21" there are only very skinny square tires, ruining highspeed cornering into silly wobbling, to get a real stable 21" wheel the spindle should be al lot wider too.

If your doing lots of hardcore offroad in wet bumpy mud or sand riddled with underlying rutts, get a 21" exchange, the bigger the wheel the more stable through gyroscopic effect, and well the greater circomference will eat up bigger potholes without stumbling.

Just look at the diference in curvature between a 19"TKC and a 21"TKC and ask yourself with which tyre you would like to ride the Snakes...

19":

21":

But as you said a 19"wider tyre on a wider rim will carry a lot more load reliable, where a smaller tyre gets overloaded quite easily, even runofs from the rim are more common the higher the wheel gets.

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Old 10-16-2011, 03:28 AM   #9785
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From "Are they built and ready"

Not to pollute the other thread, here the answer about Wheelie and Grip:

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
For the most part, the reason the S10 doesn't tend to spin the rear tire or wheelie under throttle is simply that it makes modest power and has a very flat torque curve without spikes that overwhelm available traction.
Sorry to have to set things right, and now it gets very technical, but actualy it has gobs of acceleration power, its Torque that gets the bike moving, and as shown it has the most torqy of all bikes in its department of Paluda Pushers.

What makes this bike so special in not losing tracktion, is not only its TCS, but also its 270° crank, which effectivly converts it into a Ducati L-Twin, i'll try to show (its way more complicated though) how different engines push out their power, and why an L-Twin is so special, and makes it easier to win SBK races with it :-)

If a cylinder fires it gives of a rotational acceleration of the crank, depemnding on the cranks weight converted into usable torque, the higher the weight the bigger the torque. (until the point the acceleration of the weight eats up to much of the pistons "push-energy"

You know its 4 stroke, thus every 4th movement of the piston there's a "Push-Pulse" of the Piston, to keep it understandable i write every push-pulse as two little letter p so the push pulse is; pp
And after the pus-pulse the crank which stored some of its energy still transmits a bit of that stored energy written as i'v tried to write in dsashes, as you see that stored power fades away, and at the last stroke the crank gives the tire a resting fase where it actually decelerates when compressing the new mixture.

That resting fase where how short it may seem, gives the tyre a short moment to regain grip and restore micro grip (cohesion)

A Single has a long idle fase which let it restore grip better, so in Motocross where grip is easily lost you'll see Singles win.

A Single begins with you kicking the piston up, then it fires and torque fades away, that looks ultimatly simplified like this:

__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_

(there are more things involved like secondary rocking couple etc, but that would make it to much)

The different Engine Output simplified:

A Single:

__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_



Now we go to a 180° Twin:

--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ



Now we go to a 360° Twin:

─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─ ̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇


Now we go to a 9° Twin:

_pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ _




But with a 90° L-Twin, the second pulse overlaps with the first so it sums up the Torque, and subsequently when coming to the next compression, the two compression decellerations sum up too, a bit like a trailing brake...
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:38 AM   #9786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
now it gets very technical





__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_



__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_





--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ





─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─ ̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇




_pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ _



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Old 10-16-2011, 10:01 AM   #9787
Rema in Paluda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick West View Post

Okay okay, way to technical :-)

Scribble Scrabble Scrobble...








And now for the very Special 90° degree L-Twin, or 270° Parallel -Twin...


The Black line is 0% Power delivery.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:13 AM   #9788
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Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Scribble Scrabble Scrobble...










Much better
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Old 10-16-2011, 01:47 PM   #9789
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Now Rema could you just vector sum all those curves for me, that would be great
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:00 PM   #9790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Not to pollute the other thread, here the answer about Wheelie and Grip:



Sorry to have to set things right, and now it gets very technical, but actualy it has gobs of acceleration power, its Torque that gets the bike moving, and as shown it has the most torqy of all bikes in its department of Paluda Pushers.

What makes this bike so special in not losing tracktion, is not only its TCS, but also its 270° crank, which effectivly converts it into a Ducati L-Twin, i'll try to show (its way more complicated though) how different engines push out their power, and why an L-Twin is so special, and makes it easier to win SBK races with it :-)

If a cylinder fires it gives of a rotational acceleration of the crank, depemnding on the cranks weight converted into usable torque, the higher the weight the bigger the torque. (until the point the acceleration of the weight eats up to much of the pistons "push-energy"

You know its 4 stroke, thus every 4th movement of the piston there's a "Push-Pulse" of the Piston, to keep it understandable i write every push-pulse as two little letter p so the push pulse is; pp
And after the pus-pulse the crank which stored some of its energy still transmits a bit of that stored energy written as i'v tried to write in dsashes, as you see that stored power fades away, and at the last stroke the crank gives the tire a resting fase where it actually decelerates when compressing the new mixture.

That resting fase where how short it may seem, gives the tyre a short moment to regain grip and restore micro grip (cohesion)

A Single has a long idle fase which let it restore grip better, so in Motocross where grip is easily lost you'll see Singles win.

A Single begins with you kicking the piston up, then it fires and torque fades away, that looks ultimatly simplified like this:

__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_

(there are more things involved like secondary rocking couple etc, but that would make it to much)

The different Engine Output simplified:

A Single:

__pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇___pp¯¯-─̳̳͇_



Now we go to a 180° Twin:

--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ--pppp¯¯ˉˉ



Now we go to a 360° Twin:

─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─ ̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇pp¯─̳̳͇


Now we go to a 9° Twin:

_pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ __pPp¯¯─̳̳͇ _




But with a 90° L-Twin, the second pulse overlaps with the first so it sums up the Torque, and subsequently when coming to the next compression, the two compression decellerations sum up too, a bit like a trailing brake...
Here's the english version of the rambling discourse above:

Torque is a force consisting of two components, the force created by combustion called "combustion torque" and the force created by the reciprocating motion of the piston called "inertial torque" and together they constitute the total torque created by the engine called the " composite torque" What is generally referred to as torque is actually this "composite torque".

The "combustion torque" is the torque resulting from combustion and it is directly related to the riders throttle work. In contrast the "inertial torque" is dependent on engine rpm and is created by the revolutions of the crankshaft.. Therefore it is not directly connected to the riders throttle work.

With an inline 2 cyclinder 270 degree crank engine, the 90 degree offset (1/4 of a revolution) between the movements of the two connecting rods reduces the inertial torque to almost zero. This gives the composite torque and the combustion torque virtually equal values. As a result , this contributes to more linear response to the riders throttle work and superior traction characteristics.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:34 PM   #9791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
Here's the english version of the rambling discourse above:

Torque is a force consisting of two components, the force created by combustion called "combustion torque" and the force created by the reciprocating motion of the piston called "inertial torque" and together they constitute the total torque created by the engine called the " composite torque" What is generally referred to as torque is actually this "composite torque".

The "combustion torque" is the torque resulting from combustion and it is directly related to the riders throttle work. In contrast the "inertial torque" is dependent on engine rpm and is created by the revolutions of the crankshaft.. Therefore it is not directly connected to the riders throttle work.

With an inline 2 cyclinder 270 degree crank engine, the 90 degree offset (1/4 of a revolution) between the movements of the two connecting rods reduces the inertial torque to almost zero. This gives the composite torque and the combustion torque virtually equal values. As a result , this contributes to more linear response to the riders throttle work and superior traction characteristics.
Got it. Good post.
Doesn't have the gritty confusing "character" which leaves both a smile and a frown at the same time as Rema's posts, but that was very clear and well explained.
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Old 10-17-2011, 02:16 AM   #9792
Rema in Paluda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
Torque is a force consisting of two components, the force created by combustion called "combustion torque" and the force created by the reciprocating motion of the piston called "inertial torque" and together they constitute the total torque created by the engine called the " composite torque" What is generally referred to as torque is actually this "composite torque".

With an inline 2 cyclinder 270 degree crank engine, the 90 degree offset (1/4 of a revolution) between the movements of the two connecting rods reduces the inertial torque to almost zero. This gives the composite torque and the combustion torque virtually equal values. As a result , this contributes to more linear response to the riders throttle work and superior traction characteristics.
Ehm, one of the contributing forces equal to all the combined forces :-)

Thats not what i wrote, so translation went hayward :-)

What makes a 270 so special, its the "bumpy" sinus like power pulse with its "resting" fase.
Under the black line the crank decelerates as the compression eats up a healthy bite of rotational energy, so instead of pushing the gearbox/driveshaft/rearwheel, the crank now is driven by the latter.
Thats were the "claws" come from when riding a Ducati Twin or Crossplane Big Bang, instead of constantly pushing the Tyre at the brink of overload, it gives the tyre a small break to regain microgrip.

This accelerating and decellerating is the source of the horrible driveline-banging you hear with most highly tuned shaft-twins.



Naybody knows how to extract the video ID from picasa ?


But every cloinck you here is a welcome rest to the tyre to regain microgrip, and giving that sumptious *drive* a 270° gives if you thrash it full throttle through a corner, okay, it agaiin is also a bit of dullness, because if you like to paint it black like Stoner did yesterday, you really need a lot more throttle :-)

The most linear throttle respons you'll get from an inline 6, there's always a cylinder happy to take the suddenly opened throttle...
With a single or 270° Twin, especially when its carburettor fed, that can have desastrous effect at low revs :-)

If you open the throttle at the point the sinus dives under the black line at low revs, you'll completely ruin the pressure column (Gaszuil -> english please?) and the cylinder will not get adequatly fed, with the well know lowspeed stalling we all now, and cost us many a mudbath

Thats one of the reasons Yamaha invested so much time into the Drive-by-Wire tuning of the Tenere, you just are not allowd to whack open the throttle at the wrong time or place, and i really tried to get it stalled, before i tried my usual wiggle it through the Door routine...

Rema in Paluda screwed with this post 10-17-2011 at 08:44 AM
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:14 AM   #9793
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Hi Guys,
Im not going through the billion replies for the S10 threads but can anyone tell me if the rear tank of the worldcrosser teaser has been produced or is available anywhere?

And having ridden both the 19 and 21 fronts all I can say it there is no comparison of road - 21 produces a much more predictable feel as well as a better ability to deal with corrugations/washouts. As for tyre availability - depends on where your riding.
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Old 10-17-2011, 04:57 AM   #9794
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Originally Posted by Pete640 View Post
Hi Guys,
Im not going through the billion replies for the S10 threads but can anyone tell me if the rear tank of the worldcrosser teaser has been produced or is available anywhere?
No and No, unfortunately.

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Old 10-17-2011, 06:19 AM   #9795
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You could always throw caution into the wind, as Glenn Hegstad (Striking Viking) did. Just be sure to write a book afterward. I promise to buy a copy

Colombia is a beautiful country with wonderful people. But the country has some issues that made it a learning experience to do a job there. Hanging out and partying all Christmas eve and then a botched cabby's kidnap attempt on Christmas morning made the list of "Things I'll Never Forget." I may take you up on buying the book. Oooo - retirement income!



With respect to water crossings, it's true that using small boats/floats is needed in a lot of the world. I've made a career of recovering things all over the world so btdt. My message was that doesn't mean losing common sense about the size of a boat, who is doing what, the equipment they are using, etc. It's still YOUR bike and you who will pay.

As for the salt immersion and recovery, freshwater experience doesn't relate at all, just as these aren't jetskis, snow machines, or outboard motors, made for use on/in/near water. Motorcycle engines & gearboxes are vented and bring steel, copper, & aluminum into contact. The bikes are just not sealed and protected for their wiring, bearings, electronics, sensors, cables, instrument clusters, etc.

The bikes that got dunked which I referred to were 2 KLRs and a GS. All 3 owners were able to get them going, but 2 of the 3 got rid of the bikes very soon after. Dunno about the 3rd bike. The one KLR guy is now on other non-bike S.A. adventures and the BMW owner wrote that he returned to the USA.

And that was the point. Sure, rinsing and penetrant and such may get an ocean-dunked bike running, but once the corrosion begins in a million small places the end is near for that machine.
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