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Old 10-17-2011, 09:05 AM   #9796
BobLoblaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda;17091771
[COLOR=Yellow
Ehm, one of the contributing forces equal to all the combined forces :-)[/COLOR]

Thats not what i wrote, so translation went hayward :-)

What makes a 270 so special, its the "bumpy" sinus like power pulse with its "resting" fase.
Under the black line the crank decelerates as the compression eats up a healthy bite of rotational energy, so instead of pushing the gearbox/driveshaft/rearwheel, the crank now is driven by the latter.
Thats were the "claws" come from when riding a Ducati Twin or Crossplane Big Bang, instead of constantly pushing the Tyre at the brink of overload, it gives the tyre a small break to regain microgrip.

This accelerating and decellerating is the source of the horrible driveline-banging you hear with most highly tuned shaft-twins.






But every cloinck you here is a welcome rest to the tyre to regain microgrip, and giving that sumptious *drive* a 270 gives if you thrash it full throttle through a corner, okay, it agaiin is also a bit of dullness, because if you like to paint it black like Stoner did yesterday, you really need a lot more throttle :-)

The most linear throttle respons you'll get from an inline 6, there's always a cylinder happy to take the suddenly opened throttle...
With a single or 270 Twin, especially when its carburettor fed, that can have desastrous effect at low revs :-)

If you open the throttle at the point the sinus dives under the black line at low revs, you'll completely ruin the pressure column (Gaszuil -> english please?) and the cylinder will not get adequatly fed, with the well know lowspeed stalling we all now, and cost us many a mudbath

Thats one of the reasons Yamaha invested so much time into the Drive-by-Wire tuning of the Tenere, you just are not allowd to whack open the throttle at the wrong time or place, and i really tried to get it stalled, before i tried my usual wiggle it through the Door routine...

are you saying you don't understand what I wrote or what I wrote is incorrect?
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:19 AM   #9797
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Originally Posted by Wreckchecker View Post
Colombia is a beautiful country with wonderful people. But the country has some issues that made it a learning experience to do a job there. Hanging out and partying all Christmas eve and then a botched cabby's kidnap attempt on Christmas morning made the list of "Things I'll Never Forget." I may take you up on buying the book. Oooo - retirement income!



With respect to water crossings, it's true that using small boats/floats is needed in a lot of the world. I've made a career of recovering things all over the world so btdt. My message was that doesn't mean losing common sense about the size of a boat, who is doing what, the equipment they are using, etc. It's still YOUR bike and you who will pay.

As for the salt immersion and recovery, freshwater experience doesn't relate at all, just as these aren't jetskis, snow machines, or outboard motors, made for use on/in/near water. Motorcycle engines & gearboxes are vented and bring steel, copper, & aluminum into contact. The bikes are just not sealed and protected for their wiring, bearings, electronics, sensors, cables, instrument clusters, etc.

The bikes that got dunked which I referred to were 2 KLRs and a GS. All 3 owners were able to get them going, but 2 of the 3 got rid of the bikes very soon after. Dunno about the 3rd bike. The one KLR guy is now on other non-bike S.A. adventures and the BMW owner wrote that he returned to the USA.

And that was the point. Sure, rinsing and penetrant and such may get an ocean-dunked bike running, but once the corrosion begins in a million small places the end is near for that machine.
Yessir. I wasn't part of the crowd down playing saltwater immersion. A submerged bike is recoverable, but you need to act very quickly and the more electronics the worse things will be. I still remember the emergency reclamation we did with aircaft. You have to act fast, and even then plan on losing a certain amount. That's not to say the water hasn't seeped into seems between metal isn't causing cancer unseen though. I imagine an ECU would be toast. Things like that are so small with so little gaps between the contacts, and such that a thorough cleaning would be a challenge. We used to take components apart and douse them with water-diplacing ultra thin film perservative, then wipe and clean them at more of a leasurely pace (in comparision).
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:27 AM   #9798
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Originally Posted by Pete640 View Post

And having ridden both the 19 and 21 fronts all I can say it there is no comparison of road - 21 produces a much more predictable feel as well as a better ability to deal with corrugations/washouts. As for tyre availability - depends on where your riding.
Woody from "Woody's wheels" is working on a 21" wheel conversion for Supa 10 . You can find his thread at the Vendors section, I heard that Wasp was looking into it as well. Wasp is making the kits to raise the rear suspension, he can be found at Vendors too.
Rear tanks...haven't heard anything yet except for home made ones, but it seems so many folks are looking for 'em it's only a matter of time when some aftermarket company will step up and start making something.
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:46 AM   #9799
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Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
are you saying you don't understand what I wrote or what I wrote is incorrect?

Im just explaining how it works, i'm not in competition with you at all.
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:50 AM   #9800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Im just explaining how it works, i'm not in competition with you at all.
I'm just explaining how it works, but you didn't answer my question ?
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:53 AM   #9801
Rema in Paluda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremor38 View Post
I imagine an ECU would be toast. Things like that are so small with so little gaps between the contacts, and such that a thorough cleaning would be a challenge. We used to take components apart and douse them with water-diplacing ultra thin film perservative, then wipe and clean them at more of a leasurely pace (in comparision).
ECU's on Bikes are shockproof and waterthight, and i've been doing some skinny dipping with my bikes (and lots of saltspray winterriding) no problems at all with a prepped bike, the Beemer is now 16 years old, still running with its first ECU and wiring loom...
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:58 AM   #9802
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Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
I'm just explaining how it works, but you didn't answer my question ?
Just read it again if you don't understand it now, or go and talk to a scooled mechanic you trust, if you don't believe what i'm saying, or PM me because this was allready a sidetrack, no need to disrupt the thread any further.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:30 AM   #9803
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Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Just read it again if you don't understand it now, or go and talk to a scooled mechanic you trust, if you don't believe what i'm saying, or PM me because this was allready a sidetrack, no need to disrupt the thread any further.
Your explanation is convoluted, contorted and difficult to read and understand at best. I understand english is not your first language and take that into account.

My explanation is clear , concise and accurate.
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Old 10-17-2011, 02:20 PM   #9804
Rema in Paluda
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Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
Your explanation is convoluted, contorted and difficult to read and understand at best. I understand english is not your first language and take that into account.

My explanation is clear , concise and accurate.
Your selfpraise is outstanding, but yor technical knowledge a bith scruffy, a 270 twin will never be a nice engine with a linear response to the riders throttle work, without some help of electronics, ever ridden a powerfull ducati at low speeds?

Its horrible cloinking lurching and generaly stubborn and whistfull, ance at speed it changes into a different animal, itransfers from a reluctant mule into a thoroughbred.

P.s. compound Torque consist of more than you describe, you seem to totaly forego the rocking couple of bigend and connectingrod, there's lots of reading material to be found about that.

Look for secondary rocking couple, or just imagine the conrod going back and forth as the S10's pistons go up and down...

Here's a nice animation including the two balancer shafts

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Old 10-17-2011, 03:37 PM   #9805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post

Its horrible cloinking lurching and generaly stubborn and whistfull, ance at speed it changes into a different animal, itransfers from a reluctant mule into a thoroughbred.
Yes I own a DL1000 and can confirm that it has lots of "character" which gets tiring after a few years if you have to stick to real world speed limits, unless you want to fang, then it's cool. Suits sports bikes, and is OK on the smaller engine (650) or fast sports touring on a large private non public road under controlled conditions

More sedate than a Duke but similar kind of thing. You are either "in the zone" or you ain't, Luckily modern engines have pretty wide "zones" eh?
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:39 PM   #9806
BobLoblaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Your selfpraise is outstanding, but yor technical knowledge a bith scruffy, a 270 twin will never be a nice engine with a linear response to the riders throttle work, without some help of electronics, ever ridden a powerfull ducati at low speeds?

Its horrible cloinking lurching and generaly stubborn and whistfull, ance at speed it changes into a different animal, itransfers from a reluctant mule into a thoroughbred.

P.s. compound Torque consist of more than you describe, you seem to totaly forego the rocking couple of bigend and connectingrod, there's lots of reading material to be found about that.

Look for secondary rocking couple, or just imagine the conrod going back and forth as the S10's pistons go up and down...

Here's a nice animation including the two balancer shafts




Don't be so arrogant

My explanation was clear , concise and accurate because it is a verbatim quote written by a Yamaha engineer.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:06 PM   #9807
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Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
Here's the english version of the rambling discourse above:

Torque is a force consisting of two components, the force created by combustion called "combustion torque" and the force created by the reciprocating motion of the piston called "inertial torque" and together they constitute the total torque created by the engine called the " composite torque" What is generally referred to as torque is actually this "composite torque".

The "combustion torque" is the torque resulting from combustion and it is directly related to the riders throttle work. In contrast the "inertial torque" is dependent on engine rpm and is created by the revolutions of the crankshaft.. Therefore it is not directly connected to the riders throttle work.

With an inline 2 cyclinder 270 degree crank engine, the 90 degree offset (1/4 of a revolution) between the movements of the two connecting rods reduces the inertial torque to almost zero. This gives the composite torque and the combustion torque virtually equal values. As a result , this contributes to more linear response to the riders throttle work and superior traction characteristics.
OK that's good enough, I'll go off and google a few finer points. That's about the best description I have seen. I suppose the YAMAHA Engineers know a bit about it.

Thanks to everyone, Good info in the end.

Cheers
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:11 AM   #9808
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Bluhduh Rema the Delusional and Grossly Inaccurate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
Your selfpraise is outstanding, but yor technical knowledge a bith scruffy...

Rem/R3B...

Your "selfpraise" is all you got, because your technical knowledge is a lot more than a "bith scruffy". it's almost totally non-existent...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
P.s. compound Torque consist of more than you describe, you seem to totaly forego the rocking couple of bigend and connectingrod, there's lots of reading material to be found about that.

Look for secondary rocking couple, or just imagine the conrod going back and forth as the S10's pistons go up and down...

Why do you insist upon promulgating completely erroneous and false information?

Rocking couple, either primary or secondary, have nothing whatsoever to do with the power delivery, traction characteristics, etc., and little to do with the *BALANCE* of the engine at all.

You're the one who needs to do a ton of Googling, along with a lot more research, on rocking couple vibrations and their modes, nodes, etc. Here's a simple link for you so even you can't f*ck it up...

http://www.google.com/search?q=rocking+couple+vibration&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivnsb&ei=kx2dTpTLCor7sQL6663kCQ&start=10&sa=N

(extra points to those that notice one particular description of rocking couple vibration from 2005...)

Here's a hint... A single-cylinder engine *CANNOT* have a rocking couple vibration... Yet neither can any of the Harley-Davidson air-cooled V-twins... Yet both a Ducati V-twin *AND* a BMW "Boxer" twin (actually a 180-degree V-twin) *DO* have rocking couple vibrations (both primary and secondary), as do inline fours, inline 6's, V-8's, and all sorts of other multi-cylinder engines...

All while inline 6's, almost all V-12's, etc. all have *PERFECT* balance... Oh, and 90-degree V-twins have *PERFECT* balance, too...

Rocking couples have nothing at all to do with anything you've posted yet. Perhaps you should review a few engineering texts or consult a "scooled mechanic" yourself because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... Just like you didn't in your erroneous diatribes about Telelever front ends, etc.

BobLoblaw - and Yamaha - both are way, way ahead of you in this discussion, and you're lost.

Dallara



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Dallara screwed with this post 10-18-2011 at 01:52 AM
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:15 AM   #9809
Rema in Paluda
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Thumb Setting the Facts right

The Facts

This is an animation of a 180 offset twin




Now let us look at reality, just look at this beautiful animation of BWM Engine first okay ?



Look at the pistons, they move up and down their cylinders at exactly the same moment and direction towards the valves just as with a 360 or Parallel Twin



Here another look at the 270 twin,



Click on this link to skip the above video to the "Output" phase, Just look at the light fluctuating, its a visual clue to the Torque emitted by this very special setup...

See how the light fluctuates just like my somewhat crude graphics, you actually see the second piston coming in and visually illustrates the extra punch it gives to the firing of the first.

Rema in Paluda screwed with this post 10-18-2011 at 02:24 PM Reason: Enhancing readability
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:41 AM   #9810
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Question Top box

Hi all, I have the factory panniers and top box on the S10 and while I'm not real happy with the panniers and their diddly locking mechanisms - I'm definitely not happy with the top box due to its small size. Does anyone know of a decent sized top box that works with the factory panniers ? By decent I mean you can lock your helmet away in it easily - not like the stock Yamaha top box - it won't fit my dual sport Zeus helmet at all.
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