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Old 03-01-2012, 06:58 AM   #11326
sail2xxs
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Originally Posted by razcob View Post
I'll take all these 'problems' compared to my 1150GSA. I am literally scared to ride my GS, worrying what $$$ part will need to be replaced. Trade anyone?
Sorry, not a chance... but you might have some luck with the Yamaha dealer... Romney Cycles in West Virginia has been really good to me. Good luck!

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Old 03-02-2012, 06:45 AM   #11327
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Originally Posted by Bundu View Post
Triumph, Honda and Ducati are comfortably above all the power limits and so will BMW be

I still believe Yamaha tried to protect their new 1200 by limiting power in lower gears - Yamaha would have hated their reliability history to be discredited - and 'sold' the limitation as 'green'
I have no evidence at all, just IMHO
Really??? I guess when members of a German forum petitioned Yamaha demanding the restriction be removed AND Yamaha replied they wouldn't do it becuase of 'emissions' reasons they must have been lying.

Let me see, the Vmax easily has more power and torgue than an S10, but it's final drive seems to do just fine. Chains even hold-up very well at ungodly amounts of HP/Torque.

Don't you agree that the engineers would design a final drive acording to the power capacity of the engine, rather than saying 'we'll just slap this dinky little weak final drive on there, because we can reduce the engine power with the ECU?'

That would be nutso, Bundu. It's assbackward and very un-Japanese.
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:06 AM   #11328
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Originally Posted by tremor38 View Post
Really??? I guess when members of a German forum petitioned Yamaha demanding the restriction be removed AND Yamaha replied they wouldn't do it becuase of 'emissions' reasons they must have been lying.

Let me see, the Vmax easily has more power and torgue than an S10, but it's final drive seems to do just fine. Chains even hold-up very well at ungodly amounts of HP/Torque.

Don't you agree that the engineers would design a final drive acording to the power capacity of the engine, rather than saying 'we'll just slap this dinky little weak final drive on there, because we can reduce the engine power with the ECU?'

That would be nutso, Bundu. It's assbackward and very un-Japanese.
Well the alternative is that they can't build a 1200 DS bike that is within noise and emission limits, without dropping the power/torque curve to the point that some people sell the bike for that reason....
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:19 AM   #11329
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Originally Posted by Bundu View Post
Well the alternative is that they can't build a 1200 DS bike that is within noise and emission limits, without dropping the power/torque curve to the point that some people sell the bike for that reason....

Actually, though... When it all comes down to the nut cutting, how much power do you really need? Or how much are you skilled enough to truly fully use?

Not so long ago 60 HP won GP road racing events... Not so long after that the Yamaha TZ750 was thought to be nearly unrideable, and made around 110-120 HP...

I can remember when 250cc MX bikes made just under 30 HP and that was thought to be nearly too much for the class...

And wasn't it Pierre Terblanche who said the 100 HP and 100 ft/lbs of torque was just about the perfect amount of power to have in a street motorcycle?

Many folks *think* they need a lot more power, and certainly it's fun to have a lot... What's the old saying? "Too much power is just enough."

OTOH, far too many times in my well over 40 years of riding I have seen folks go quicker with *LESS* power, myself included. Even GOAT's like Rossi say good, broad, controllable power is the best solution to riding quickly.

Maybe with the Super Tenere Yamaha was doing much like they have with the R-1... Not worrying so much about maximum peak power, but instead about giving the rider the best compromise of good, controllable power and ease in finding traction.

Just a thought... YMMV.

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:26 AM   #11330
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Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Actually, though... When it all comes down to the nut cutting, how much power do you really need? Or how much are you skilled enough to truly fully use?

Not so long ago 60 HP won GP road racing events... Not so long after that the Yamaha TZ750 was thought to be nearly unrideable, and made around 110-120 HP...

I can remember when 250cc MX bikes made just under 30 HP and that was thought to be nearly too much for the class...

And wasn't it Pierre Terblanche who said the 100 HP and 100 ft/lbs of torque was just about the perfect amount of power to have in a street motorcycle?

Many folks *think* they need a lot more power, and certainly it's fun to have a lot... What's the old saying? "Too much power is just enough."

OTOH, far too many times in my well over 40 years of riding I have seen folks go quicker with *LESS* power, myself included. Even GOAT's like Rossi say good, broad, controllable power is the best solution to riding quickly.

Maybe with the Super Tenere Yamaha was doing much like they have with the R-1... Not worrying so much about maximum peak power, but instead about giving the rider the best compromise of good, controllable power and ease in finding traction.

Just a thought... YMMV.

Dallara



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Agreed, but it does seem like the 1200 DS bikes are continually increasing the output (Explorer, Crosstourer) so there is probably a market for it - BMW even sells reduced power models for those that don't want it - doubt if many follow that route...

My point was actually not so much the peak of the S10, but the need for an ECU flash before it is satisfactory for many riders
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:33 AM   #11331
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On a Stock ECU S10 and its more than enough to either flash the TCS, wheelie or wheelspin (all dependant on TCS setting) during Traffic light GPs ... it might not lift the front on a whiff of throttle but it will still pick up its skirts if asked... the high end HP numbers being bandied about by Trumpet are playing to the road rocket buyers crowd its total fashion of the the day/marketing. My current 888 Duc probably makes just over 80 RWHP and its still fast, my old FZR1000 Genisis did about 110RWHP and my old 916 ~109 RWHP none of those bikes were what I considered too slow....

Maybe I'm getting old but If your not using WOT all the time why do you need more HP, just twist the throttle more to get at the stuf you already have.
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:45 AM   #11332
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Originally Posted by IainMac View Post
On a Stock ECU S10 and its more than enough to either flash the TCS, wheelie or wheelspin (all dependant on TCS setting) during Traffic light GPs ... it might not lift the front on a whiff of throttle but it will still pick up its skirts if asked... the high end HP numbers being bandied about by Trumpet are playing to the road rocket buyers crowd its total fashion of the the day/marketing. My current 888 Duc probably makes just over 80 RWHP and its still fast, my old FZR1000 Genisis did about 110RWHP and my old 916 ~109 RWHP none of those bikes were what I considered too slow....

Maybe I'm getting old but If your not using WOT all the time why do you need more HP, just twist the throttle more to get at the stuf you already have.
well we'll see what BMW does next year.

As I use my 2nd and 3rd gear, the graph below requires I flash my ECU to fix it


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Old 03-02-2012, 08:06 AM   #11333
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Originally Posted by Bundu View Post
well we'll see what BMW does next year.

As I use my 2nd and 3rd gear, the graph below requires I flash my ECU to fix it

Just for the record...

I love my S-10, and I like the power it produces and how it delivers it. No real complaints except for that occasional weird stumble it has leaving a dead stop, but even that you get used to and "ride around".

OTOH, I'm putting on a set of Arrow headers and getting an ECUnleashed re-flash. Changing the headers is only because I don't care much for catalytic converters, not in the search for more power (I'm keeping the stock muffler because I like Q-U-I-E-T and 100% reliability more and more these days). And the ECU re-flash is because I personally think that the emission and noise regs in many countries these days force manufacturers into tough compromises on low-speed throttle response and power delivery, and I want to see if the re-flash tailors the motorcycle to be more like what I imagine the original Yamaha field developmental engineers envisioned and wished they could have delivered...

But I should add one of the reason I chose the ECUnleashed re-flash through a dealer I not only know and trust, but is also close by, is because he assured me that he could easily re-flash the ECU *back* to completely, 100% Yamaha OEM stock if I didn't like what ECUnleashed came up with.

Personally, I think Yamaha did a great job with the stock power of the Super Tenere... And I think they were quite courageous, marketing-wise, to buck the trend for going for max power (much like they did with the crossplane-crank R-1) and instead tried to give S-10 riders *GOOD*, usable power with linear delivery. The kind of power that may not *feel* fast but yet is actually getting you from Point A to Point B quicker, with less drama, than the companies that simply chase the highest brochure numbers...

Again, just my two cents... Nothing more. YMMV.

Dallara



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Old 03-02-2012, 08:09 AM   #11334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallara View Post

And wasn't it Pierre Terblanche who said the 100 HP and 100 ft/lbs of torque was just about the perfect amount of power to have in a street motorcycle?

Many folks *think* they need a lot more power, and certainly it's fun to have a lot... What's the old saying? "Too much power is just enough."

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I was at the launch of the K100 "flying brick" in the UK in the 80's. Some people thought that BMW could have given it more power because it wasn't on par with the litre-bikes from Japan at the time. BMW's chief engineer went to great lengths to explain why it didn't have more power, why it wasn't needed, and added "BMW will never make a motorcycle with more than 100hp."

Now they have a motorcycle with almost twice that... But for day to day riding I would sure prefer to be riding a 30 year-old Brick than the SS.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:13 AM   #11335
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Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Just for the record...

I love my S-10, and I like te power it produces and how it delivers it. No real complaints except for that occasional weird stumble it has leaving a dead stop, but even that you get used to and "ride around".

OTOH, I'm putting on a set of Arrow headers and getting an ECUnleashed re-flash. Changing the headers is only because I don't care much for catalytic converters, not in the search for more power (I'm keeping the stock muffler because I like Q-U-I-E-T and 100% reliability more and more these days). And the ECU re-flash is because I personally think that the emission and noise regs in many countries these days force manufacturers into tough compromises on low-speed throttle response and power delivery, and I want to see if the re-flash tailors the motorcycle to be more like what I imagine the original Yamaha field developmental engineers envisioned and wished they could have delivered...

But I should add one of the reason I chose the ECUnleashed re-flash through a dealer I not only know and trust, but is also close by, is because he assured me that he cold easily re-flash the ECU *back* to completely, 100% Yamaha OEM stock if I didn't like what ECUnleashed came up with.

Personally, I think Yamaha did a great job with the stock power of the Super Tenere... And I think they were quite courageous, marketing-wise, to buck the trend for going for max power (much like they did with the crossplane-crank R-1) and instead tried to give S-10 riders *GOOD*, usable power with linear delivery. The kind of power that may not *feel* fast but yet is actually getting you from Point A to Point B quicker, with less drama, than the companies that simply chase the highest brochure numbers...

Again, just my two cents... Nothing more. YMMV.

Dallara



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from what I've read, you'll be delighted with the flashed ECU S10 - smooth, but loads of low down power in 2nd/3rd, and stumble gone

good luck an enjoy!
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:35 AM   #11336
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Originally Posted by Dallara View Post
Personally, I think Yamaha did a great job with the stock power of the Super Tenere... And I think they were quite courageous, marketing-wise, to buck the trend for going for max power
Yamaha was brave enough to go against the trend in a number of things on the S10. It's a bike that's still pretty much in the line of what was made some years ago, really, really purpose built.
The problem is that the marketing team was totally incompetent to present the bike to the press and consumers. The brochures, websites, etc, simply aim for the stuff that we already know on a GS.

I'm yet to see a brochure that mentions the 50/50 weight distribution, the top quality suspension, the fuel efficient low stress engine or how easly you protect the bike to make it crashable. Instead they tell us how powerfull the engine is or that it has a 2 mode fly by wire throttle... Not to even mention the crappy, afterthought accessory range, which could be made by some third party like H&B or SW
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:06 PM   #11337
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I don't know maybe I'm just getting old. This is the first bike I've ever owned that is still stock after 5000 miles. Hell I'm even running a stock seat and screen( albeit behind a Madstad bracket). I don't get the need for more power I'm really happy with it just as it came out of the box. Yes it's a purpose driven bike and I think Mama Yamaha did a great job filling that niche for a big bore dual sport. Don't get me wrong I understand the appeal of power. I just don't see the need for it in this class of bike.


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Old 03-02-2012, 06:34 PM   #11338
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Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
I don't know maybe I'm just getting old. This is the first bike I've ever owned that is still stock after 5000 miles. Hell I'm even running a stock seat and screen( albeit behind a Madstad bracket). I don't get the need for more power I'm really happy with it just as it came out of the box. Yes it's a purpose driven bike and I think Mama Yamaha did a great job filling that niche for a big bore dual sport. Don't get me wrong I understand the appeal of power. I just don't see the need for it in this class of bike.


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Perfectly said. Thank You
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:19 PM   #11339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
I don't know maybe I'm just getting old. This is the first bike I've ever owned that is still stock after 5000 miles. Hell I'm even running a stock seat and screen( albeit behind a Madstad bracket). I don't get the need for more power I'm really happy with it just as it came out of the box. Yes it's a purpose driven bike and I think Mama Yamaha did a great job filling that niche for a big bore dual sport. Don't get me wrong I understand the appeal of power. I just don't see the need for it in this class of bike.


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Mark you said it right
I know I'm getting old and make no bones about it - more than likely in my younger days I would have found ways of squeezing every ounce of power from this machine - these days; I am perfectly happy the way it is - mellowing out sure has a way of getting our priorities in check, so now just simply enjoying the ride
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:45 PM   #11340
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Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
I don't know maybe I'm just getting old. This is the first bike I've ever owned that is still stock after 5000 miles. Hell I'm even running a stock seat and screen( albeit behind a Madstad bracket). I don't get the need for more power I'm really happy with it just as it came out of the box. Yes it's a purpose driven bike and I think Mama Yamaha did a great job filling that niche for a big bore dual sport. Don't get me wrong I understand the appeal of power. I just don't see the need for it in this class of bike.

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A few weeks ago I would have agreed. After riding it at sea level I know it has more to give.
I just figure we're not talking race pistons or polished ports just a little tweaking on an electrical
box to give it back what the guy in the cubicle wanted it to have.

It's always a choice. Happy, leave it. Curious about the possibilities? Ship out the little black box.
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