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Old 07-11-2012, 04:54 AM   #12901
wfopete
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Hey Sock Monkey, don't worry about the pitch forks yet; there's a S10 gang heading my way with the torches and forks because I called the S10:

"Yamaha's 1200cc version of the KLR650"

I'm in a S10 wittness protection program now. The program is financed by KTM.

As I Tenere' owner I believed it was my responsibility to research a bit about the S 10. I started by looking up the Tenere' Desert. I discovered the literal translation for Tenere' is: "Where there is nothing".

Hmmm. Nuff said.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:03 AM   #12902
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Originally Posted by Old Git Ray View Post
This is kinda where I am at. This driveline lash thing. I've been riding for 40 years and have no problem with (or even noticed) it. I get on a new bike and just accept that it is going to be different from the last one and just get on with it. After a short while I get used to a bikes idiosyncrasies and just ride it without paying too much attention to whether it does this or that better that XYZ bike.

I just know it will lug SWMBO and I, with luggage, around all day, in safety, on most surfaces, with a bit of fun thrown in for good measure. But this is what I thought it was designed for.

But then obviously I obviously fall in to the 'stooopid' category too because I do not want it to ride like an R1 or a WR250.
Bam! This is me. I never noticed driveline lash, but I've never gone to 5k rpm, let off, then cracked the throttle (why would you ever do this in the real world?), I just noticed it's different from my last bike.

I do ride mine a bit like my WR250R though. I should probably tone that down a bit, but it's too damn fun.

The Ducati is a tall street bike, and as such, will have different street manners than the S10.

Overall though, no pitchfork here, it was a fair assessment, and you're alright in my book, just sounds like you're looking for more street oriented than dirt oriented performance.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:46 AM   #12903
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What drive line lash?

It was a lot worse on my GS12. Haven't noticed any on my S10.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:04 AM   #12904
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Originally Posted by Mikef5000 View Post
Bam! This is me. I never noticed driveline lash, but I've never gone to 5k rpm, let off, then cracked the throttle (why would you ever do this in the real world?), I just noticed it's different from my last bike.

I do ride mine a bit like my WR250R though. I should probably tone that down a bit, but it's too damn fun.

The Ducati is a tall street bike, and as such, will have different street manners than the S10.

Overall though, no pitchfork here, it was a fair assessment, and you're alright in my book, just sounds like you're looking for more street oriented than dirt oriented performance.
Thanks Mike.

I wasn't trying to start a fight wrt to my drive line lash comment, it was just something I noticed having owned and ridden over 30k miles on other shaft-driven bikes. As Ray said, it just is what it is. Not good, not bad, just what is. And, it could very well have been another artifact of the bike only having 300 miles on it and would go away over time.

As for why would you decel then accel quickly? Traffic! I do it all the time. My bike is my daily driver, and I commute 60+ miles to/from work on roads from 25mph residential streets to 75mph+ slab. On the 45mph 3 lane wide section, traffic is very erratic and if my lane suddenly slows, I let engine braking slow me down while I look for an opening to jet into another lane and move out. Off, on, bam.

And actually, I AM looking for something a bit more off-road worthy. I'm a dirt bike guy. Like many, I did the whole MX thing when I was younger and healed faster and have had a dirt bike in the stable for....well, let's just say many years . Always will be a dirt rider too. I have my WRR for the really gnarly stuff, and absolutely love it. Bullet proof, fun, very versatile, hence my attraction to the S10. From all the reports, it seemed to have all of those traits as well. I went on the test ride with the intention of riding the bike home, and would have, but my test ride didn't result in the "this is just what I'm looking for" response that I was hoping for. So, I'll wait to see how the new KTM looks/rides, I haven't ridden the new Tiger Explorer yet, and I still have big lust for another Moto Guzzi, so the Stelvio NTX is still very high on my list of "next bikes".

As for Pluric's comment about evaluating a bike after a 15 minute ride (was actually 30, but still too short)....come on man. I have more respect for you than that. That's all I was given, so I had to make my assessment based on what I had, not on what I didn't get. Sheesh.....another one who didn't read the warning......

Anyway, it's exactly as Dallara said, and I agree 100%: There are a lot of great choices out there, and that is very cool. Not so many years ago, we had very few choices here in the US for bikes in this category, and now we have many. And as I've said before, there isn't a "bad" one in the bunch.

-SM
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:38 AM   #12905
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I think Sock Monkey does a good S10 description in many ways, other could be questionable or his point of view but in general I agree with him. I can understand people who likes a Multistrada could find the S10 boring or lack of power but the S10 searches a compromise between road/dirt/adventure rides the Multi doesn’t.

I tried a Multi in dirt and it was awfull. The Ducati is focused in road and useless in dirt, so no compromises, IMHO much easier to design than a really trail bike like the S10 who needs to handle also in mud, rocks or sand... and in these conditions the S10 is incredible!!
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:52 AM   #12906
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Originally Posted by Sock Monkey View Post
Thanks Mike.

I wasn't trying to start a fight wrt to my drive line lash comment, it was just something I noticed having owned and ridden over 30k miles on other shaft-driven bikes. As Ray said, it just is what it is. Not good, not bad, just what is. And, it could very well have been another artifact of the bike only having 300 miles on it and would go away over time.

As for why would you decel then accel quickly? Traffic! I do it all the time. My bike is my daily driver, and I commute 60+ miles to/from work on roads from 25mph residential streets to 75mph+ slab. On the 45mph 3 lane wide section, traffic is very erratic and if my lane suddenly slows, I let engine braking slow me down while I look for an opening to jet into another lane and move out. Off, on, bam.

And actually, I AM looking for something a bit more off-road worthy. I'm a dirt bike guy. Like many, I did the whole MX thing when I was younger and healed faster and have had a dirt bike in the stable for....well, let's just say many years . Always will be a dirt rider too. I have my WRR for the really gnarly stuff, and absolutely love it. Bullet proof, fun, very versatile, hence my attraction to the S10. From all the reports, it seemed to have all of those traits as well. I went on the test ride with the intention of riding the bike home, and would have, but my test ride didn't result in the "this is just what I'm looking for" response that I was hoping for. So, I'll wait to see how the new KTM looks/rides, I haven't ridden the new Tiger Explorer yet, and I still have big lust for another Moto Guzzi, so the Stelvio NTX is still very high on my list of "next bikes".

As for Pluric's comment about evaluating a bike after a 15 minute ride (was actually 30, but still too short)....come on man. I have more respect for you than that. That's all I was given, so I had to make my assessment based on what I had, not on what I didn't get. Sheesh.....another one who didn't read the warning......

Anyway, it's exactly as Dallara said, and I agree 100%: There are a lot of great choices out there, and that is very cool. Not so many years ago, we had very few choices here in the US for bikes in this category, and now we have many. And as I've said before, there isn't a "bad" one in the bunch.

-SM
How could anyone respect me??? No one really jumped your shit about your ride impression because
it was not too far off the mark. Interesting no one seems to have noticed the drive lash opinion until you brought it up.
Of all the shaft bikes I've had (79 XS1100 being the worse shaft hopper) the S10 has the least noticeable hop or drive
lash I've ever felt.

My comment was painting with a very broad brush. There are quite a few keyboard testers who make
bike ability calls based on stats, rumour, ouija boards or other proven quesstimates and make profound
statements that often have me thinking "WTF?"

Look how many nay sayers look at the size and weight of the S10 and quickly determine it is not suitable
for off road use. Have they ridden one? Have they been off road with one? Yet they can quickly scan the
stat sheet and make a decsion for the rest if us.

I'm just glad I never bought into the V Strom can't go off road hype or I would have never taken it beyond the
painted line stuff.

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Old 07-11-2012, 11:21 AM   #12907
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Sounds like there are three different potential issues confusingly being discussed here:

1) driveline lash - the play in the drivetrain that can cause a noise/lurch when rolling on/off the throttle abruptly.

2) shaft drive jacking - the tendency of shaft drive bikes to change chassis attitude during acceleration/deceleration as the rear suspension extends/compresses with power application.

3) on/off fueling - abruptness in how power comes on off-idle as the FI system re-introduces fuel after being cut off when the throttle is closed.

My opinion is that the S10's driveline lash is more/less normal. Shaft drive bikes do tend to have a bit more driveline lash than chain drive bikes and it may be that shaft drive bikes with transverse engine layouts (vs. the BMW's longitudinal engine layout) might be slightly worse since they have an one extra set of gears to make the 90-degree turn from the countershaft to the drive shaft. But if there is a difference, it isn't much.

On the jacking issue, this has more/less been engineered out of modern shaft drive bikes. On the BMW, they have the sophisticated paralever setup and the S10 relies on a much simpler/lighter design that seems to work just as well; in fact, I think most magazines have commented that the S10's rear suspension under power application is better behaved than the GS's.

Which leaves the low-speed fueling issues. And here, I think the S10 does have some issues that have been discussed here and on the S10 forum ad nauseam. There is something not quite right with the S10's fly-by-wire throttle that can cause low-speed abruptness. I don't think it is a big deal and it easily compensated for by rider technique, but I tend to be more adaptable than most. I think the glitch is there for emissions control and as such, probably is different between Euro and USA bikes.

You can do the "clutch switch mod" (wiring the clutch switch permanently closed) which seems to help, although it's certainly not the complete solution. I find it mostly helps, but it can make the bike even more touchy coming off idle. In fact, I believe the S10's much-touted ability to crawl through difficult off-road situations is due to the softness in its low-speed fueling. Everything has tradeoffs.

Anyway, I think we're talking about a fueling issue here that has nothing to do with the jacking, shaft drive, or the driveline.

Final comment: the S10 is a big-dog friendly sort of bike but it's no Multistrada which is a thoroughbred sportbike in upright adventure garb. It all depends on what you want to do with the beast.

- Mark

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Old 07-11-2012, 11:37 AM   #12908
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Originally Posted by wfopete View Post
Hey Sock Monkey, don't worry about the pitch forks yet; there's a S10 gang heading my way with the torches and forks because I called the S10:

"Yamaha's 1200cc version of the KLR650"

I'm in a S10 wittness protection program now. The program is financed by KTM.

As I Tenere' owner I believed it was my responsibility to research a bit about the S 10. I started by looking up the Tenere' Desert. I discovered the literal translation for Tenere' is: "Where there is nothing".

Hmmm. Nuff said.
LOL. Ummm....yeah, I can see where that may have ruffled some feathers......

I consider the KLR650 and DR650 to be some of the best values in motorcycledom, followed closely by the DL650 (aka Wee Strom). They are all an amazing amount of bike for relatively little $$$. IMO, at <$12k, the S10 is clearly in that "a LOT for a little" category for the "big" bikes (granted, that's not the MSRP, it just happens to be what you buy them for). Just don't equate "value" with "cheap", or any other derogatory term because the components on the S10 all seemed very good to me. I really liked the design of the tubeless spoked wheels (unlike BMW's, which mine constantly leaked air... ), and the build quality of the engine seemed excellent. Very nicely put together. The only possible thing I saw was the oil filter placement.....it may be a non-issue, but it sure seems exposed sticking out in front of the motor like it is. I suppose a beefy, well-designed skid plate remedies that pretty quickly though.

Here's the really interesting thing.....the BMW GS is billed as the "around the world" bike, and indeed many people have done exactly that with them. As I was riding the S10, I thought "now THIS is a take anywhere, ride anything beast". I never really got that from my GS. I laughed out loud when BMW's moniker "unstoppable" ran through my head, and I got this visual of a motorcycle version of Predator vs. Aliens (hey, it was fookin' HOT out....I was likely hallucinating) with the GS on one side and the S10 on the other. I'd put my money on the S10.....

-SM
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:52 AM   #12909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
Sounds like there are three different potential issues confusingly being discussed here:

1) driveline lash - the play in the drivetrain that can cause a noise/lurch when rolling on/off the throttle abruptly.

2) shaft drive jacking - the tendency of shaft drive bikes to change chassis attitude during acceleration/deceleration as the rear suspension extends/compresses with power application.

3) on/off fueling - abruptness in how power comes on off-idle as the FI system re-introduces fuel after being cut off when the throttle is closed.

My opinion is that the S10's driveline lash is more/less normal. Shaft drive bikes do tend to have a bit more driveline lash than chain drive bikes and it may be that shaft drive bikes with transverse engine layouts (vs. the BMW's longitudinal engine layout) might be slightly worse since they have an one extra set of gears to make the 90-degree turn from the countershaft to the drive shaft. But if there is a difference, it isn't much.
.
.
.
- Mark
You're exactly right Mark, and my bad for f'ing that up. I was really talking about #1 above (on/off transition of power). There is certainly lash in any shaft-driven bike, and to Pluric's point, no one else has brought it up, so I'm going to chalk that up to "newness". Once the bits have time to get to know each other better, it may well smooth out.

Interesting comment re. #3 though. I actually didn't feel there was an issue with the fueling, at least not on the bike I rode. Someone else described the S10 as "big dog friendly", and that's exactly the impression I got. Confidence inspiring, won't jump up and bite you, does/goes where you tell it. I didn't get a feeling that the low-end fueling was dodgy, just that down real low, the bike had a good 'ole tractor feeling of chug chug chug. I would have loved to have had some time to ride it off road on some of the shitty, dry, baked, rock strewn hillsides we have tons of around here to see how well it handled them. I got the impression that it would climb things that no bike its size should be able to.

-SM
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:02 PM   #12910
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Originally Posted by Sock Monkey View Post
Interesting comment re. #3 though. I actually didn't feel there was an issue with the fueling, at least not on the bike I rode. Someone else described the S10 as "big dog friendly", and that's exactly the impression I got. Confidence inspiring, won't jump up and bite you, does/goes where you tell it. I didn't get a feeling that the low-end fueling was dodgy, just that down real low, the bike had a good 'ole tractor feeling of chug chug chug. I would have loved to have had some time to ride it off road on some of the shitty, dry, baked, rock strewn hillsides we have tons of around here to see how well it handled them. I got the impression that it would climb things that no bike its size should be able to.
Good comments. I do think it is fueling that is mostly the problem, but it is a weird hard-to-pin-down problem. Several magazines have talked about it - how there is some kind of weird lag/delay and non-linearity in the low-speed throttle application that seems to be there most of the time, but not always. Without the clutch switch mod, there is a definitely slight bog on mine you notice pulling away from a stop - you have to give it a little extra fuel and it flattens slightly than takes off. Some think you can tune it out. With the mod, it seems to go away, but the off-idle response seems very abrupt to me then. It may vary from bike to bike.

Odd problem to clearly identify but most owners have noted the glitch to some extent although the description of the problem certainly varies. Again, it is something I can ride around quite easily and I don't consider it a big problem. But I have to admit that the GS bikes I've ridden just seem more predictable and linear in their low-speed throttle response.

The bike does have pretty exceptional ability to plonk through rough terrain without stalling. Whether it is better than the GS, I really don't know as I think you'd have to ride them back to back in the same terrain to really know. Some of the magazines have said the GS is the better off-pavement bike while others have said exactly the opposite. Go figure.

- Mark
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:12 PM   #12911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sock Monkey View Post
...........

........... I got the impression that it would climb things that no bike its size should be able to.

-SM
You're right, and this is why I love this bike. A sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf2Kj...2&feature=plcp
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:32 PM   #12912
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It is interesting to me that the annals of the two teams that actually took GS1100/1150's around the world both felt that the F650 Dakar (thumper) would have been a much better choice (in hind sight).

I believe that the S-10 is a terrific motorcycle, and if I had to have a 1200 cc bike, this would be it. I just can't bring myself to ride something this large, even if it does handle so well. Please build an 800cc, 475 lb. middle weight.
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:20 PM   #12913
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Please build an 800cc, 475 lb. middle weight.




Either of those should do, yes?

-SM
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:29 PM   #12914
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On the matter of the off idle hiccup I've had the reflash done as well as the clutch bypass.
Now I seem to have the opposite problem. Well, not really a problem, more of a better pay attention issue.

Before it had just a slight stall. It felt like the ignition would quit for a nano second. It was suggested that
it could be tied to the TCS adjusting for the first revolution of the wheels.

Mine mostly went away adjusting the air screws and with the reflash. Now with the clutch mod done it
does the opposite. Instead of a (very) low speed stall it now lunges. Right off idle it has like an extra
kick that if your not paying attention it's kinda like popping the clutch. On pavement it's not that big
of a deal so far. I went from not putting my foor up as fast from the stall to feeling like I'm giving it a little
too much throttle.

I have not had it off road. That's where I could see it being a little touchy picking slow speed through anything
kinda technical.

I do need to play with it a little more too. If it is just the clutch mod I can easily pull the fuse when needed.
Side note, the thing is like a Harley now. Better not be in gear when you hit the starter.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:42 PM   #12915
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Just back from the Whitehorse, Yukon rally (10,006 miles) and I also went up into Alaska. One of the guys asked if anyone had the ECU flash, I don't think any of those bikes had. Interesting.

I was running the clutch fuse mod when I left home, but found after some fillups that I thought I was getting better mpg without the mod, so I removed it till I got home.

The TC probably saved me at least once, when the rear came loose around 65mph in rain going up hill and passing an RV, I was not hotdogging and was in "T" mode, big surprise when the rear went sweeping left and right about three times.

Difference is I had the MTS12 one year and put 9000+ miles on it. I have had the S10 a year in two more weeks, and I have 24,000+ miles on it. Plus it has not seen a dealer to remove the side panels. Easiest bike to work on I have ever owned.
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