Is Mexico Safe?

[PirateJohn]

Originally Posted by tricepilot

[ although there is a significant chance he wasn't aware just how risky his choice was, or that the Old Guererro Church was a "Zeta Staging Area".

Every day, millions of people withdraw money from ATMs without any issue. Try that alone, at night, in a sketchy area of a strange city and your odds of finding trouble skyrocket.

I would, however, based on this article being posted here, go bass fishing on Falcon Lake on the US side in a heartbeat.

Trice, Hartley was an oil patch worker (Halliburton as I recall) and had lived in Reynosa for several years. He wasn't naive although I guess it's always possible that something went terribly wrong.

As I wrote in my post there is lots of speculation as to what actually happened.

[PirateJohn]

Originally Posted by mark883

You going down to vote for the PRI candidate, PJ?

I need to find out who the Gulf Cartel is endorsing.

[Reposado1800]

Originally Posted by PirateJohn

Trice, Hartley was an oil patch worker (Halliburton as I recall) and had lived in Reynosa for several years. He wasn't naive although I guess it's always possible that something went terribly wrong.

As I wrote in my post there is lots of speculation as to what actually happened.

I think they finally found his remains hung up in some bushes on the lake.

[PirateJohn]

Hmmm. Doesn't look like my Guerrero Viejo photos are still linked. http://www.fototime.com/inv/AC25637DFE61353 should get you to the raw shots.

[PirateJohn]

Originally Posted by Clayjars

I think they finally found his remains hung up in some bushes on the lake.

If you have a link to a story I would be interested in seeing it. There was some speculation that he was still alive and they collected the insurance money.

Or she collected the money anyway.

Or that it was a drug deal gone bad.

Definitely something odd about the whole episode.

[acejones]

Since he had lived in the area for a few years, one can make the argument that he wasn't as naive as portrayed. I always suspected it was either a drug deal gone bad or a revenge because of some previous dealings.

[einnocent]

Originally Posted by PirateJohn

If you have a link to a story I would be interested in seeing it. There was some speculation that he was still alive and they collected the insurance money.

Or she collected the money anyway.

Or that it was a drug deal gone bad.

Definitely something odd about the whole episode.

Originally Posted by acejones

Since he had lived in the area for a few years, one can make the argument that he wasn't as naive as portrayed. I always suspected it was either a drug deal gone bad or a revenge because of some previous dealings.

A lot of the reaction to Mexico violence -- by both Americans and Mexicans -- seems to be to blame the victim to rationalize what happened. After all, if it only happens to bad people and I do don't anything bad, then it won't happen to me, right? Except this isn't true. Case in point, the partially-completed Guadalajara Mother's Day Massacre, as described in the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

Half of the dead were soon identified. They were local people who had recently gone missing. Ordinary citizens, not narcos, kidnapped and murdered. Four were said to have been students at the University of Guadalajara.
That turned out to be only part of the story. It seemed that the Zetas had planned to kidnap and kill fifty people, and to distribute the dismembered corpses around Guadalajara on Mother’s Day...They just grabbed whomever they could—waiters, a construction worker, a dance teacher in a primary school. The purpose behind all this carnage? To “cause terror,” the arrested leader, who is twenty-seven, said.

It does a disservice to the victims to suppose their guilt after the fact. It also ill-prepares those who read these threads. The fact is that the overall rate of violence in Mexico is comparable to that in the US. However, there *are* hotspots, and you can be smart and not be doing anything stupid and still have something horrible happen to you. The rationalizing I read here and elsewhere reminds me of the fault-finding that happens after someone dies in a motorcycle accident. "He suffered from target fixation," "He should have been sitting at the red light in first gear, ready for someone to plow into him from behind," etc etc. The reality is that what we do is relatively dangerous, and where we go can be dangerous, and sometimes shit just happens.

I just hope that if something horrible happens to me, people in the forums don't start picking what happened apart and figure out some way for it to have been my own fault so that they might feel better about what they do. I look at my own trip to TdF and I've accepted that what I'm doing is dangerous. There are bad roads and bad drivers, and despite my best efforts the bike won't always be 100% tip-top. As much as I try to avoid it sometimes I may have no choice but to ride at night. I ask around before I go anywhere for advice, but still I might just get stopped at a fake police checkpoint, or I might hit a mule at 35 mph in broad daylight, and you'll never hear from me again. I've accepted that, and so has Darren, but it sounds like a lot of people here have not.

[PirateJohn]

Originally Posted by einnocent

It does a disservice to the victims to suppose their guilt after the fact. It also ill-prepares those who read these threads. The fact is that the overall rate of violence in Mexico is comparable to that in the US. However, there *are* hotspots, and you can be smart and not be doing anything stupid and still have something horrible happen to you. The rationalizing I read here and elsewhere reminds me of the fault-finding that happens after someone dies in a motorcycle accident. "He suffered from target fixation," "He should have been sitting at the red light in first gear, ready for someone to plow into him from behind," etc etc. The reality is that what we do is relatively dangerous, and where we go can be dangerous, and sometimes shit just happens.

I just hope that if something horrible happens to me, people in the forums don't start picking what happened apart and figure out some way for it to have been my own fault so that they might feel better about what they do. I look at my own trip to TdF and I've accepted that what I'm doing is dangerous. There are bad roads and bad drivers, and despite my best efforts the bike won't always be 100% tip-top. As much as I try to avoid it sometimes I may have no choice but to ride at night. I ask around before I go anywhere for advice, but still I might just get stopped at a fake police checkpoint, or I might hit a mule at 35 mph in broad daylight, and you'll never hear from me again. I've accepted that, and so has Darren, but it sounds like a lot of people here have not.

Man, I sure hope this wasn't a dig at me.

For one thing, whether you think it's blaming the victim or not, it actually made the McAllen newspaper that few believed Ms. Hartley's tale at face value. Notice that I didn't express an opinion but I do feel that one would be remiss to not mention the absolutely profound local speculation and gossip.

Secondly, I think that everyone here accepts that motorcycling is inherently dangerous. We talk often of risk management. That's why the folks here with first hand experiences openly discuss the good and the bad.

[einnocent]

Originally Posted by miguelito

"What you don’t get from most reports in the US is statistical evidence that Americans are less likely to face violence on average in Mexico than at home, particularly when you zero in on Mexico’s most popular travel destinations."

I agree, which is why I was surprised to find this at the end of the article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-25/a..._s=PM:AMERICAS

Murder rates in Mexico City are half the national rate of 18 per 100,000 residents and are lower than homicide rates in U.S. cities like New Orleans and Washington.

It's good to keep some perspective, certainly.

[gswash_pilot]

Hello to all the advriders out there! As prep for a trip I'm planning this winter I've been roaming through the posts and threads here: really loving the Central America Road Wisdom Jeff Munn compiled. I'm currently following dwj Donnie's trip as a source of relevant first-hand info. Obviously though, a trip through mx and central america is not without its concerns and a few of my crew are anxious about safety, especially concerning the infamous drug cartels all over the news.

Thus I was wondering if anybody knows of any more great threads packed with juicy info on mexico and central american road biking, articles or first-hand knowledge which might help dispel this crippling fear of riding in mexico. I'm psyched for this trip and really believe that with common sense and courtesy a ride through central america can be magnificent. Now I just have to prove it, jaja.

Hey keep up the great reports here and the adventurous spirit!

[einnocent]

Originally Posted by PirateJohn

Man, I sure hope this wasn't a dig at me.

It's not, I'm not trying to harsh anybody on here, I definitely respect everyone here.

Originally Posted by PirateJohn

For one thing, whether you think it's blaming the victim or not, it actually made the McAllen newspaper that few believed Ms. Hartley's tale at face value. Notice that I didn't express an opinion but I do feel that one would be remiss to not mention the absolutely profound local speculation and gossip.

To say that there are rumors when in fact there are rumors is to perpetuate a fact -- that the rumors exist. So that's fair. But I think this plays into my larger point: I've read that and I agree with the theory that (many) Mexicans are blaming the victims as a coping mechanism. So when you mention that the locals are talking rumors, I think it's important to point out that not only are they mere rumors, but that (many) Mexicans have a need to believe in the guilt of the victim, regardless of their culpability, and this may very well be the basis of the rumor. Further, I think many adventure motorcyclists want to buy into these rumors to make themselves feel safer. If you say that wasn't the intent of your post, PirateJohn, then I believe it, but that was how I read it.

I hope I'm not coming off as accusatory or anything, I definitely want to discuss this stuff civilly and with respect. I think this topic -- safety in Mexico -- is really important, and I regularly find myself arguing passionately with both sides over this. On one side people are freaking out, and on the other side people (maybe not you, but certainly some) are being blithely dismissive, and I believe the truth (as always) lies somewhere in between.

[pilot815]

Originally Posted by PirateJohn

Trice, Hartley was an oil patch worker (Halliburton as I recall) and had lived in Reynosa for several years. He wasn't naive although I guess it's always possible that something went terribly wrong.

As I wrote in my post there is lots of speculation as to what actually happened.

It is worth mentioning that the jet ski trailer, and possibly truck had Tamualipas license plates. I would assume they crossed over and drove on the US side for safety reasons.

Some speculation going around was that Halcones on the US side saw them and called it in to those on the Mexican side.

[einnocent]

Originally Posted by gswash_pilot

Thus I was wondering if anybody knows of any more great threads packed with juicy info on mexico and central american road biking, articles or first-hand knowledge which might help dispel this crippling fear of riding in mexico.

I'm doing a ride through Mexico right now. We came down Baja and then ferried over to Mazatlan and crossed through central Mexico (Guadalajara, Mexico City) down into Chiapas and up into the Yucatan. Everyone has been super friendly and I've not yet felt in danger from anyone at all. Even the cops and military have been chill. I can't speak to the northern border areas or north-central or northeast, which I skipped because I heard they were sketchy, but don't take my word. I met someone who recently went to Monterrey and he said the place is dead at night, apparently people are afraid to go out. I also hottubbed last night with some (hot) girls from Culiacan, Sinaloa, and they said they city is fine, even though I had thought it no-go. Everyone seems to agree Ciudad Juarez is a war zone, but I've yet to meet anyone who has been there.

ADVGrifter was nice enough to do a summary post here:

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....6&postcount=31

Other than not riding at night and being aware or your surroundings and trusting your gut, my biggest piece of advice would be: try to get safety info from people who are or were recently there. All advice is anecdotal, but first-hand accounts seem to be the least-unreliable. People who haven't *been there* will just parrot all the things they've heard (like I just did about Monterrey ), and I've heard plenty of nutty stuff from Mexicans about places in their own country. Heck, San Franciscans will tell you Oakland is a hellhole, which is totally not true. We've run into tons of people along the way who have been to where we are about to go, and their advice has been the most accurate by far.

Oh, and definitely do the ride. I've found it intensely rewarding.

[gswash_pilot]

Originally Posted by einnocent

I'm doing a ride through Mexico right now. We came down Baja and then ferried over to Mazatlan and crossed through central Mexico (Guadalajara, Mexico City) down into Chiapas and up into the Yucatan.

That is the exact route I'm planning for this winter . I hope you're ready, because here are the questions: what were the roads like (as I'll be on a no-questions road bike)? What about the ferry, prices, schedule, ease of finding or recommended company? Any must-see recommendations, places to stay, particular fried-fish stands not to be missed?

Also, are you doing a ride report, if so, link please!

The advice is solid and seems to be in line with both what everyone here says and common travel/life sense, though I'll have to ditch my riding at night habit .

[tricepilot]

Originally Posted by einnocent

All advice is anecdotal, but first-hand accounts seem to be the least-unreliable.

Had to read that twice.

I think for the casual reader it may be more facilitating to say, that first-hand accounts are the most reliable.

If that wasn't your intent, let me know.