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Old 02-11-2010, 07:15 PM   #46
Bruincounselor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle
I say make the parks free and make parents pay to send their kids to school.
Wouldn't happen. I know too many parents who wouldn't pay. I believe the thought is that an educated workforce is more likely to be well paid and

pay taxes.......
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:28 PM   #47
Norml
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I believe we should pay for our stay. It includes safe drinking water and usually fairly decent toilets and a safe place to make a campfire. And meeting cool fellow travellers.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:00 PM   #48
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I'm always very good about paying for sites, and believe in no trace camping whenever possible.
Typically, the payment system is not a burden and the rangers are very friendly, but I have had one bad encounter with a pay site that I'd like to relate.
My buddy and I showed up after dark and paid for a spot in the tent section at the 3 Sisters, OR overnight city park. Tent section was completely empty, we were the only two tents - literally 100 empty spaces surrounded us. We park in the same little driveway and set up our tents. I am awakened at 7am by an angry female park attendant that claimed I didn't pay for my tent space. She says we paid for where my buddy's tent was, but that my tent was on the wrong side of some "magical boundary rock" which was not clearly recognizable as such and that I had to pay for the extra site immediately or she was calling the cops.
I was pissed, and argued with her a bit, she knew she was being completely illogical and an ignoramus. She just wanted some damn money and was not going to leave me alone until she got it. I wanted to get back to sleep, so I paid her. I regret it, should have let her call the cops.
Avoid this campsite. It is the Three Sisters Overnight City Park.

Makes me want to stick to primitive camping exclusively.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:00 AM   #49
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The OP started an interesting thread and never came back???

The Washington Post had an article a while back about a Congress debating how to continue funding the National Park System. The user fees really came down to this: Everybody gets an education, while few actually make a decision to go to a National or even State park. It really got that simple.

The big parks are considered to be National treasures and decisions about them are made by the big Gummint, so the Feds pay most everything out of what's left from housing payments, medicare, food assistance, wars, and interest on the National debt. To keep the parks going or improving them required more tax at the National level or user fees. Voters clearly told Congress not to raise taxes, so we got user fees.

From listening to our friends working in the system and from what I've seen, the park system is hanging on by frayed threads. I don't mind the few bucks I have to pay for the few days out of a year that I get my therapy by using the places. There's a scale of where you are. At one end are the nut-eaters who want closure to everything but foot traffic. I doubt there's more than a couple of those on this forum. At the other end, if we don't keep the Park system funded, some big company will try to "help." I grew up near strip mines and have seen enough beautiful places strip-mined or logged-out to know better than to trust that kind of help.

(Photo from Google Images, but I've seen similar)

And to the guy who wrote that a few people try their best to not pay for their kids school, you sure got that one right!

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Old 02-12-2010, 10:17 AM   #50
LewisNClark
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Camping at National Parks

Few in the public really realize what happened to our National Parks during the previous Administration. I spend a lot of time in the western states (Idaho, MT, WA, OR, WY) Natl Parks and the below link shows the funding cuts made in 2006. Twelve of our National Parks were temporarily closed to the public, due to the 2006 cuts. Twelve of our National Parks were closed in 2006 and 2007 due to lack of funding for staff to maintain the facilities (trash removal, security, fee collections, etc.)

There are now more non-paid volunteers at the major NP's than ever before. A small camping fee does not begin to cover the maintenance required to keep the campsites up, let along improvements. The below link puts it in a nutshell.


http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=673
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:03 PM   #51
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Priorities

It's really all about priorities our Gummit has more than enough funds... total cost of wars since 2001? 959,982,195,000 and rising.

I bet they could really spruce up some of the parks with the smallest percentage of that money currently going to foreign lands.
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Old 02-12-2010, 02:19 PM   #52
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Or better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewcity
It's really all about priorities our Gummit has more than enough funds... total cost of wars since 2001? 959,982,195,000 and rising.

I bet they could really spruce up some of the parks with the smallest percentage of that money currently going to foreign lands.
Lobbiest, mineral companies, oil companies etc are getting bargains on mineral, forest timber and oil exploration rights..if only a 1% or 2 % of those funds could make a major influence on our National Parks, and national forest lands.
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins
say what? own property & you're paying for schools. maybe not the full bill, but some. in a sense renters get off easy here. the rest is coming from the fed. level and you're paying.
That is what I'm saying! I don't have kids but I still have to pay taxes for schools and people that actually USE the schools don't have to pay more! I am paying taxes for the parks so why do I have to pay more for when I use them? I know schools cost a lot more then parks do.

Wreck "nut-eaters " I'm going to steal that one!

Here is an idea...Lets leave parks "Natural"...no roads, no RV access, no photo spots, no buildings etc.... Land doesn't cost anything to upkeep...so we pay for some shitters...a water hose...and I guess a pissed off park ranger... So what are we talking here...$150,000-200K a year? Big deal...Obama is spending that in jet fuel a week... AND, us actual Adventurers (not sure on the spelling) can just slide in and camp!

Mongle screwed with this post 02-12-2010 at 08:42 PM
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Old 02-13-2010, 05:14 AM   #54
Bruincounselor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle
That is what I'm saying! I don't have kids but I still have to pay taxes for schools and people that actually USE the schools don't have to pay more! I am paying taxes for the parks so why do I have to pay more for when I use them? I know schools cost a lot more then parks do.

Here is an idea...Lets leave parks "Natural"...no roads, no RV access, no photo spots, no buildings etc.... Land doesn't cost anything to upkeep...so we pay for some shitters...a water hose...and I guess a pissed off park ranger... So what are we talking here...$150,000-200K a year? Big deal...Obama is spending that in jet fuel a week... AND, us actual Adventurers (not sure on the spelling) can just slide in and camp!
Hijack:
So let me get this straight: You think that because you have no children you gain no benefit from schools.
Are you really so nave that you believe this? I think our founding fathers were pretty smart to realize that an educated workforce has many benefits; especially in a democratic society. Its pretty tough to vote if you cant read; let alone make an informed choice. An uneducated workforce is not so good at working or generating income and paying taxes so the burden of taxes is shifted to the top (if there are taxes at all). Do you also believe that all taxes are bad? So you have no need for basic infrastructure, police, fire, road maintenance etc?

What is the average standard of living in countries that have no or poor education systems? Pick one and move there.

You can put a person through high school for the cost of one year in jail


I am a fan of the idea of wilderness. Unfortunately there are too many people who dont understand how to leave no trace and it becomes used. The Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness comes to mind campsites that are so trampled it would take over 1,000 years for the soil to recover. I believe that providing opportunity for people to enjoy the outdoors on the entire continuum from city parks and paved bike paths to no rescue wilderness (Leo McAvoy, Backpacker Sep 1984) is important if we which to preserve wild places.

As for the original question If you wanna stay ya gotta pay.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:44 AM   #55
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re

interesting thoughts....i have grown up camping and exploring the woods,parks & wilderness in the NWst, i have seen the changes that come with increased use and decreased $, iv'e also seen the history of the gov giving away OUR resources at a loss, timber,mining...so i'm supposed to feel guilty if i don't fork over a few bucks for a night with nature? sorry..in my world the real crime is the way rich folks manage to give everything to other rich folks...i have a book i bought in the 70's called free oregon campgrounds...almost everyone of those now charge and offer no additional services...in fact the views in some have been destroyed for $ and the profits aren't spent on the parks...so i say you should aways camp free...unless you feel like it's patriotic to get screwed. MTC.
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Old 02-13-2010, 07:35 AM   #56
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This threads come full circle to the root of the problem being the government....want to solve it?....think and vote Libertarian. But be prepared for the result.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:22 AM   #57
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruincounselor
Hijack:
So let me get this straight: You think that because you have no children you gain no benefit from schools.
Are you really so nave that you believe this? I think our founding fathers were pretty smart to realize that an educated workforce has many benefits; especially in a democratic society. It’s pretty tough to vote if you can’t read; let alone make an informed choice. An uneducated workforce is not so good at working or generating income and paying taxes so the burden of taxes is shifted to the top (if there are taxes at all). Do you also believe that all taxes are bad? So you have no need for basic infrastructure, police, fire, road maintenance etc?

What is the average standard of living in countries that have no or poor education systems? Pick one and move there.

You can put a person through high school for the cost of one year in jail………


I am a fan of the idea of wilderness. Unfortunately there are too many people who don’t understand how to leave no trace and it becomes used. The Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness comes to mind – campsites that are so trampled it would take over 1,000 years for the soil to recover. I believe that providing opportunity for people to enjoy the outdoors on the entire continuum from city parks and paved bike paths to no rescue wilderness (Leo McAvoy, Backpacker Sep 1984) is important if we which to preserve wild places.

As for the original question – If you wanna stay ya gotta pay.
Easy big boy... don't make me get my stick....

I agree with everything you say...to a point. I have no problem paying taxes, I understand their necessary evil ( Matter of fact my pay used to come out of those taxes!). Do we need education? Hell yes. But I think people that are actually using that service should pay more then those that don't. The point I was trying to make is that we are getting screwed everytime we have to pay to lay our head on a piece of dirt in a NP. If you don't have to pay for schools why NP?

And as for an Uneducated work force...we are already there. I own a business and you should see the kids right out of H.S. that have no idea how to do ANYTHING! These kids can't even do simple math in their head.
If you give them anything mechanical they look at you like your from another planet. So yes I'm a little bitter about paying for schools when I don't have kids and that other peoples kids might be coming out of school with absolutely no skills what-so-ever!!

so....Bruin; don't take it personally, it is just my view and really has no effect on you so I don't know why you are getting hateful about it. Cheer up man!
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Old 02-13-2010, 03:06 PM   #58
Motomedic
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What about all of the people that are "camping" for free right here in town?






Oh yeah, they're "housing challenged"




























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Old 02-13-2010, 05:15 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisNClark
Lobbiest, mineral companies, oil companies etc are getting bargains on mineral, forest timber and oil exploration rights..if only a 1% or 2 % of those funds could make a major influence on our National Parks, and national forest lands.
So We would just end up paying for it in higher cost of products. Or american companies would shut down and we would get product from outside the US.
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whizzerwheel
....the problem being the government.........
Very few people would/could argue with it blowing slimy, snot-filled, hairy goat balls - or sumping similar.
I think we all decide how we're going to live within the established and changing controls, so we have differing opinions and actions.
Personal judgements are created from a multitude of reasonings.
One person's sensible can be another person's obscene.
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