Camping w/o paying - Page 5

moventurer · 02-14-2010, 05:37 PM

There is some confusion here I believe. Many people lump all public land into a category they call "National Parks", but this is not usually the case. National Parks are very different from National Forest land or National Grasslands. All three have parks. A true National Park has an entrance fee, draconian rules (you can't dare touch anything), large fence around the perimeter, and more park rangers than you can shake a stick at. National Forests and National Grasslands, while public lands, are not exactly National Parks. Why is this important? Because only the National Parks apply the fees they collect, directly to their operating budget.

The fee charged for National Forest and National Grasslands has nothing to do with expenses and serves two purposes. First, the Federal government is scared shitless that a member of the public will squat on PUBLIC lands. Second, the fee is to offset any advantage the public lands would have over private businesses such as motels, private campgrounds, etc. They backup the fees with LAWS they've passed that limits the number of days you can stay on public lands. The fees collected at these sites goes into a petty cash fund, and is used for office incidentals. Your camping fee often buys doughnuts at the local Forest Service office, nothing more. (A relative administered numerous National Forests and Grasslands all over the western US.)

Also, as mentioned earlier, a ranger may tell you that you can go down the road a few miles and camp for free. This is true on MOST National Forest and Grasslands. When I arrive at a campground on NF lands I often shake my head at the incredible list of rules they post. Because, if you walk just a few hundred yards out of the campground you can camp for free right there beside the campground. Oh, you'll still get hassled by the ranger, even though you are completely within the law, and their own rules, but you can do it.

Edit:
I'd also like to add, that timber sales, mineral rights and grazing fees ARE paying for the NF & GL. For example, one National Grassland gets approximately $50,000,000 per year in oil revenue because the federal government owns the mineral rights. That grassland has approximatley four parks, which cost less than $50K to operate... Yet they still charge fees and have a 6 day limit!

Bruincounselor · 02-15-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongle

But I think people that are actually using that service should pay more then those that don't.

So we should make the students pay for primary education? Interesting idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongle

The point I was trying to make is that we are getting screwed everytime we have to pay to lay our head on a piece of dirt in a NP. If you don't have to pay for schools why NP?

You do pay for both if you are a taxpayer even if you never directly use them. They are there when you want to access them. Also seems contradictory to the first statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongle

And as for an Uneducated work force...we are already there. I own a business and you should see the kids right out of H.S. that have no idea how to do ANYTHING! These kids can't even do simple math in their head. If you give them anything mechanical they look at you like your from another planet. So yes I'm a little bitter about paying for schools when I don't have kids and that other peoples kids might be coming out of school with absolutely no skills what-so-ever!!

I work in a school. I know what we turn out. I have seen the range from students who leave our doors. I have former students currently at Harvard, Stanford and Georgetown; I also have former students on welfare with 2 children. While it's easy to point fingers it's not always the schools fault. The students who choose not to further their education after high school are generally not the most motivated and probably started out life with the deck stacked against them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongle

so....Bruin; don't take it personally, it is just my view and really has no effect on you so I don't know why you are getting hateful about it. Cheer up man!

Your view could potentially impact my living so it can be seen as personal. What kind of business do you own? I think we'd probably enjoy each others company and welcome you to stop by my neighborhood for a brew anytime. Let's take this off list if you wish to continue this spirited discussion before we get sent to Jo Mamma.

Teneighty23 · 02-17-2010, 09:58 PM

im just glad BC has over 1200 free campsites, so so many Park quality, reason being is they are usually on gravel roads (perfect) but when we are in unfamiliar areas and only find pay sites, we are in tents and are only there to sleep, so we usually get in late, (after supper and after spending some time at a sight or swimming in the evening) then just set up sleep, and are off in the morning, we have been told multiple times by other campers, "just leave early, you guys dont gotta pay, your in a tent"

funniest thing i seen was near Sooke, which is west of Victoria, BC.
we were lookin for a place to camp right near the famous Sooke potholes, and only found one site, it was a large ugly campsite full of big campers, all tent space was full, but there were RV spots open, with no people in them, we had a couple tiny tents, we could just set up anywhere really, they wanted $25 for the site, "we just wont charge you to use the hook ups, since you wont need to use them" mmnothanks, we left and found a tall grassy field, and spent the night there.

mpanther · 02-18-2010, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teneighty23

there were RV spots open, with no people in them, we had a couple tiny tents, we could just set up anywhere really, they wanted $25 for the site, "we just wont charge you to use the hook ups, since you wont need to use them"

Good job on finding a free site instead. Not a fan of camping in RV parks with a tent.

But I think $25 for the RV site to park a couple of tents is fairly reasonable.
At least they weren't trying to charge by the rider.

norcal1 · 02-18-2010, 09:05 AM

A few years back I met a guy who worked for the US forest service and his job was setting up camp grounds. He told me that most camp groounds cost the goverment in excess of 100k to 200k. I told him no way he told me about a campground they had just finished. It had 18 spots and the price was 175k. I told him I got to hear how that was possible. He started telling me that they had to have an enviromental impact report. He told me that all area had to be serveyed. That the Tables alone were over a 1500.00 each and the fire pits were 950.00 each installed. The company that the goverment hired to do the moving of dirt and leveling was paid 75k. And then he told me he and his partner were both making over 50 per hour and had worked on the project for 7 months. Our goverment working on any thing is why our budgets are out of wack and why we are all going to be paying 20.00 plus per night to put a tent up. He told me with out he gov. involvment it could have been built for about 15k.

Lone Rider · 02-18-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norcal1

..... He told me with out he gov. involvment it could have been built for about 15k.

I'll believe that.
Waste upon waste, upon waste...feeding further waste...

moventurer · 02-18-2010, 07:11 PM

The federal government is required to follow official bid procedures when procuring contractors to build parks. They get pretty good deals on paving and road construction, because they have long relationships with the companies in the area.

Tables can cost a lot, though, as some are fabricated out of reinforced concrete. There are more fiberglass and traditional wood picnic tables, however, and while they don't come with a Wal-Mart price tag, they are not at all expensive.

Keep in mind that the parks are amortized over such a long period of time, that the cost for infrastructure is less than your rent or house payment, even in the nicest of national forest or grassland parks. Its not like they are out there completely rebuilding every year... More like every other decade, tops.

jyellard · 02-21-2010, 09:14 PM

Replying to multiple posts.

I have been keeping an eye on the thread, I didn't make the post to argue with people. I believe paying for the services is the right thing to do. I don't think there is anything wrong with camping out in the middle of bumf...k egypt while cleaning up after yourself is wrong either. However, if you are searching out and camping within a facility that offers toilets, showers, drinking water, fire pit, picnic table, level campsite, ect., then you should have no problem with the fee. If you have enought $$ to travel on a motorcycle, then pay the fee or camp outside of a fee campsite.

I posted to ensure that people feel responsible for supporting our parks, and public access sites. I did not post to argue with people, so don't be disappointed if I don't respond to your replies.

Great Katoom · 02-21-2010, 09:25 PM

Sorry, I can't let LewisandClark get away with the cock and bull claim of budget cuts and the previous admin, etc. Closed some national parks?..really, When and where?

The NPS budget was 2.1 billion in 2000.
2.8 billion in 2008.
On average in steadily increased during that time. I'm always suspicious when someone provides a link to budget numbers and they aren't from the agency in question. It's not that hard to find federal budget numbers.

I was actually pleased to see a modicum of budgetary restraint in a couple of the years.

The government is the only entity that can raise prices and lower services and stay in business.

Teneighty23 · 02-21-2010, 11:49 PM

If you use all the services the sites are providing, I agree, PAY UP. Almost all the Forest service campsites in BC provide TP and a firepit, free of charge. what more do you need? Deadfall is for personal use for the fires too.

Grainbelt · 02-22-2010, 01:00 AM

I find it mildly hilarious that folks with tens of thousands of dollars in bikes, gear, camping equipment, annual maintenance, gas and insurance bills, etc. are whining about 20 dollar per night accommodations.

There is a cost to be out there doing what we love, and it is published and even avoidable if you so choose. Next time you were going to buy another ADV sticker for your panniers, save the dough to cover that camping fee you were going to dodge.

moventurer · 02-22-2010, 11:36 AM

Well, when you roll up to a campground, on a low impact vehicle like a motorcycle (not some 20-ton RV,) and it costs $25+ to stay there in a tent, while the local Motel 6 is $39.99... I can see where resentment and rebellion against the campground authorities can be created. Especially, since rude park rangers, forest service & BLM personnel is commonplace. (Granted, they do have to deal with some unruly public, but that is part of the job they signed up to do.)

Just sayin'!

TwoShots · 02-22-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grainbelt

Next time you were going to buy another ADV sticker for your panniers, save the dough to cover that camping fee you were going to dodge.

Amen.

Benjava · 02-22-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grainbelt

I find it mildly hilarious that folks with tens of thousands of dollars in bikes, gear, camping equipment, annual maintenance, gas and insurance bills, etc. are whining about 20 dollar per night accommodations.

Thanks for making a bunch of presumptions about me. I don't think we've met.

IF I had all that you acuse me of maybe, but for now it denies me access that I pay taxes for. FU

duhgee · 02-22-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjava

Thanks for making a bunch of presumptions about me. I don't think we've met.

IF I had all that you acuse me of maybe, but for now it denies me access that I pay taxes for. FU

Aww, I liked the pre-edited version of this post better!

02-14-2010, 05:37 PM	#61
moventurer Adventurer Joined: Nov 2007 Location: about to be lapped Oddometer: 63	There is some confusion here I believe. Many people lump all public land into a category they call "National Parks", but this is not usually the case. National Parks are very different from National Forest land or National Grasslands. All three have parks. A true National Park has an entrance fee, draconian rules (you can't dare touch anything), large fence around the perimeter, and more park rangers than you can shake a stick at. National Forests and National Grasslands, while public lands, are not exactly National Parks. Why is this important? Because only the National Parks apply the fees they collect, directly to their operating budget. The fee charged for National Forest and National Grasslands has nothing to do with expenses and serves two purposes. First, the Federal government is scared shitless that a member of the public will squat on PUBLIC lands. Second, the fee is to offset any advantage the public lands would have over private businesses such as motels, private campgrounds, etc. They backup the fees with LAWS they've passed that limits the number of days you can stay on public lands. The fees collected at these sites goes into a petty cash fund, and is used for office incidentals. Your camping fee often buys doughnuts at the local Forest Service office, nothing more. (A relative administered numerous National Forests and Grasslands all over the western US.) Also, as mentioned earlier, a ranger may tell you that you can go down the road a few miles and camp for free. This is true on MOST National Forest and Grasslands. When I arrive at a campground on NF lands I often shake my head at the incredible list of rules they post. Because, if you walk just a few hundred yards out of the campground you can camp for free right there beside the campground. Oh, you'll still get hassled by the ranger, even though you are completely within the law, and their own rules, but you can do it. Edit: I'd also like to add, that timber sales, mineral rights and grazing fees ARE paying for the NF & GL. For example, one National Grassland gets approximately $50,000,000 per year in oil revenue because the federal government owns the mineral rights. That grassland has approximatley four parks, which cost less than $50K to operate... Yet they still charge fees and have a 6 day limit! moventurer screwed with this post 02-14-2010 at 05:46 PM

02-18-2010, 09:05 AM	#65
norcal1 Cameron Park, CA. Joined: Mar 2006 Oddometer: 209	A few years back I met a guy who worked for the US forest service and his job was setting up camp grounds. He told me that most camp groounds cost the goverment in excess of 100k to 200k. I told him no way he told me about a campground they had just finished. It had 18 spots and the price was 175k. I told him I got to hear how that was possible. He started telling me that they had to have an enviromental impact report. He told me that all area had to be serveyed. That the Tables alone were over a 1500.00 each and the fire pits were 950.00 each installed. The company that the goverment hired to do the moving of dirt and leveling was paid 75k. And then he told me he and his partner were both making over 50 per hour and had worked on the project for 7 months. Our goverment working on any thing is why our budgets are out of wack and why we are all going to be paying 20.00 plus per night to put a tent up. He told me with out he gov. involvment it could have been built for about 15k. norcal1 screwed with this post 02-18-2010 at 09:16 AM

02-21-2010, 09:14 PM	#68
jyellard ^OP Adventurer Joined: Mar 2008 Location: SW Indiana Oddometer: 39	Replying to multiple posts. I have been keeping an eye on the thread, I didn't make the post to argue with people. I believe paying for the services is the right thing to do. I don't think there is anything wrong with camping out in the middle of bumf...k egypt while cleaning up after yourself is wrong either. However, if you are searching out and camping within a facility that offers toilets, showers, drinking water, fire pit, picnic table, level campsite, ect., then you should have no problem with the fee. If you have enought $$ to travel on a motorcycle, then pay the fee or camp outside of a fee campsite. I posted to ensure that people feel responsible for supporting our parks, and public access sites. I did not post to argue with people, so don't be disappointed if I don't respond to your replies. __________________ Josh 2007 GasGas EC300 1996 KLR 650

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02-17-2010, 09:58 PM	#63
Teneighty23 Adventurer Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Northern Alberta Oddometer: 68	im just glad BC has over 1200 free campsites, so so many Park quality, reason being is they are usually on gravel roads (perfect) but when we are in unfamiliar areas and only find pay sites, we are in tents and are only there to sleep, so we usually get in late, (after supper and after spending some time at a sight or swimming in the evening) then just set up sleep, and are off in the morning, we have been told multiple times by other campers, "just leave early, you guys dont gotta pay, your in a tent" funniest thing i seen was near Sooke, which is west of Victoria, BC. we were lookin for a place to camp right near the famous Sooke potholes, and only found one site, it was a large ugly campsite full of big campers, all tent space was full, but there were RV spots open, with no people in them, we had a couple tiny tents, we could just set up anywhere really, they wanted $25 for the site, "we just wont charge you to use the hook ups, since you wont need to use them" mmnothanks, we left and found a tall grassy field, and spent the night there.

02-18-2010, 07:11 PM	#67
moventurer Adventurer Joined: Nov 2007 Location: about to be lapped Oddometer: 63	The federal government is required to follow official bid procedures when procuring contractors to build parks. They get pretty good deals on paving and road construction, because they have long relationships with the companies in the area. Tables can cost a lot, though, as some are fabricated out of reinforced concrete. There are more fiberglass and traditional wood picnic tables, however, and while they don't come with a Wal-Mart price tag, they are not at all expensive. Keep in mind that the parks are amortized over such a long period of time, that the cost for infrastructure is less than your rent or house payment, even in the nicest of national forest or grassland parks. Its not like they are out there completely rebuilding every year... More like every other decade, tops.

02-21-2010, 09:25 PM	#69
Great Katoom WyoRider Joined: Mar 2009 Location: Casper, WY Oddometer: 89	Sorry, I can't let LewisandClark get away with the cock and bull claim of budget cuts and the previous admin, etc. Closed some national parks?..really, When and where? The NPS budget was 2.1 billion in 2000. 2.8 billion in 2008. On average in steadily increased during that time. I'm always suspicious when someone provides a link to budget numbers and they aren't from the agency in question. It's not that hard to find federal budget numbers. I was actually pleased to see a modicum of budgetary restraint in a couple of the years. The government is the only entity that can raise prices and lower services and stay in business.

02-21-2010, 11:49 PM	#70
Teneighty23 Adventurer Joined: Nov 2008 Location: Northern Alberta Oddometer: 68	If you use all the services the sites are providing, I agree, PAY UP. Almost all the Forest service campsites in BC provide TP and a firepit, free of charge. what more do you need? Deadfall is for personal use for the fires too.

02-22-2010, 01:00 AM	#71
Grainbelt marginal adventurer Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Minnyhappiness Oddometer: 25,008	I find it mildly hilarious that folks with tens of thousands of dollars in bikes, gear, camping equipment, annual maintenance, gas and insurance bills, etc. are whining about 20 dollar per night accommodations. There is a cost to be out there doing what we love, and it is published and even avoidable if you so choose. Next time you were going to buy another ADV sticker for your panniers, save the dough to cover that camping fee you were going to dodge.

02-22-2010, 11:36 AM	#72
moventurer Adventurer Joined: Nov 2007 Location: about to be lapped Oddometer: 63	Well, when you roll up to a campground, on a low impact vehicle like a motorcycle (not some 20-ton RV,) and it costs $25+ to stay there in a tent, while the local Motel 6 is $39.99... I can see where resentment and rebellion against the campground authorities can be created. Especially, since rude park rangers, forest service & BLM personnel is commonplace. (Granted, they do have to deal with some unruly public, but that is part of the job they signed up to do.) Just sayin'!