ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Face plant
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-29-2002, 07:07 PM   #31
Red Bull
Studly Adventurer
 
Red Bull's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sonoma, CA - USA
Oddometer: 799
Quote:
Originally posted by fish


Wow. Do you really think you could administer stitches in the field?
Oh FISH, It's just like sewing soft leather! Last summer I was paddling down the Grand Canyon, (they still can get GS's down there!) and I ended up stiching the head of a person who got slashed with a paddle, and like most head injuries, it blead a LOT! Still more than 5 days from a put-out, it was a necessary field treatment. As it turned out, hardley any scar! (as reported back to me by his doctor, who appreciated my handywork.

OK, so I was just this side of FREEKING OUT!:eek: But it can be done. Fortunatly, I also had some pain killers, and this boy was so silly he could hardly stay still.

His girlfriend was giving me the eye the whole time and I thought she was going to throw-up half the time, but heck, it worked. I hope I NEVER have to do this again, but if I do, well at least I had some more recent field work.

BTW- I was an USAF CSAR (Combat Search and Rescue) and as a field medic, at least no one was shooting at me this time!
__________________
--- John

John@MyHomeWebSite.com
'97 BMW R1100 GSA "RED BULL" - Sonoma, CA
'Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Red Bull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 07:15 PM   #32
Chopperman
I am dead
 
Chopperman's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Oddometer: 27,033
Quote:
Originally posted by fish


Wow. Do you really think you could administer stitches in the field?

Thanks for the tip on Nitrile. I'll get some when I finish running through the 200ct. box of powderless latex gloves I got at costco.
get the nitrile anyhow. use the latex ones in the shop for the nasty jobs. I use them when I am doinf something that gets messy (greasing bearings ferinstance) but I want clean hands later for fiddly work.
__________________
dead
Chopperman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 07:24 PM   #33
Chopperman
I am dead
 
Chopperman's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Oddometer: 27,033
Re: Re: Meds

Quote:
Originally posted by Rubber Cow

I have noticed docs who are unwilling to prescribe high-strength pain meds for nasty things like back pain because they are afraid of the patient becomming addicted. I yelled at one last month who refuse to give my girlfriend a script for 2days worth of vicodin to help with back pain.
Hell, my neurosurgeon gave me 100 Vicodin after my back surgery. When I raised the real concern of addiction he said he'd rather treat the addiction later than have me re-injure my spine due to me flinching in intense pain and muscle spasms. (It turns out I didn't take a single one because I didn'y have ANY pain.)

It's just like in the GSing crowd. Some docs are really self-absorbed self-protective assholes and others are capable of seeing the bigger picture and not going into hysterics when someone asks for some basic pain meds.
Besides, Vicodin, Tylenol#3, is nothing compared to some of the more exotic meds now used.
Lastly, I also try to pick up a few boxes of Paracetamol with 20 milligrams of codeine phosphate (Tylenol#2) when I'm in Europe. This stuff is sold over the counter with caffeine for migraines. The caffeine is nice because it counteracts the drowsiness caused by the codeine.
this is a whole other enraging subject. our paranoia about medications (thanks folks you all know who you are) is so bad that we condemn terminally ill patients to the sorts of agony we would not wish on our worst enemies...because we are afraid of themgetting addicted. And many docs are hogtied because of laws fear of lawsuit, and a fear of public flogging in the court of opinion.

fortunately my doc knows me and knows that when I say it hurts, I MEAN it.

BUt this one doc....

sorry I'll stop there.

Thanks but I'll risk the addiction if I gotta chew em like candy to get to help.
__________________
dead
Chopperman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 08:00 PM   #34
Red Bull
Studly Adventurer
 
Red Bull's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sonoma, CA - USA
Oddometer: 799
I'm not recommending anything, just thouhgt I'd shaire a bit of info. When ever I go out side the USA, I can generally get anti-biotics and pain killers etc. that I generaly use to restock my field meds. In the USA, some of these are "controled substances" (for good reason since too many people take the meds for thw wrong reason.)

If you are overseas (well, 3rd world), you should be able to get the meds you need cheep. I often give my antibiotics to people in remote areas that are very sick. I am NOT a doctor, and do NOT recommend this... but I have seen too many untreated infections cause gangreen, and related insestinal infections causing extreem dehydration. You SHOULD know the basic meds, and be your own administrator, as long as you are doing it in emergency situations. See if you can schedule a meeting with your doctor. Mine is a world traveler too, and he was very helpful in providing me with the necessary information for my field (self) treatment. As noted earlier, I have had somewhat extensive medicle training, my father is a USAF Doctor, and mother USAF field nurse, so medicine, treatment and all this is more second nature to me.

Again, please do not take this as advise, just personal experiance on the issue regarding field medical treatment and some practicle way of solving potentially deadly situations.
__________________
--- John

John@MyHomeWebSite.com
'97 BMW R1100 GSA "RED BULL" - Sonoma, CA
'Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Red Bull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 08:52 PM   #35
eap OP
El Adventurero Solitario
 
eap's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland, Least Coast USA
Oddometer: 3,233
Quote:
Originally posted by Chopperman
Hmph I must be stoopid. I'm only seeing CPR courses at my community colleges. no first aid/trauma/survival
Well CPR would be the first skill to get/or get refreshed in the ABC's, Airway, Breathing and Circulation. Besides you can BS with the instructor and get info on more advanced training. Reminds me that I got to go get my refresher on CPR soon - They offer it weekly at my work so there's no excuse for me not to do it...
__________________
eap '14 R1200GS-LC Thunder Grey
Chesapeake Bay Watershed, Surf Your Watershed
Save the Bewbies
"Over the Mountains Of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride, boldly ride," -From 'Eldorado', Edgar Allen Poe (1849) http://www.eapoe.org/works/poems/eldrdoa.htm
eap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 04:13 AM   #36
epilido
Thawing Adventurer
 
epilido's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Toledo Oh
Oddometer: 281
CPR cert is a great stepping stone. Just don't use it. If you ever see me down and think I need CPR or more airway help than opening the airway PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE.

Most accidents occure more than a few minutes from a hospital. If the trauma is severe enough to warrant mouth to mouth or cardiac compressions the survival rate is essentially ZERO. A study of in hospital monitored patients with a cardiac event. ( I know this is different from trauma) had only a 15% survival rate and survival was not characterized. The majority of these patients did not return to normal lives.

The basics of spinal immobilazation and blood loss control along with basic shock management should be the limit of major accident management for the average rider.

Unless there is danger of loss of life to the injured or rescuer do not move the patient. SEND FOR HELP! Stop major bleeding with direct pressure. Keep them warm and as comfortable as possible.

There are some times when it is better to be dead than a vegitable or very crippled IMHO. Trauma from a motorcycle accident that causes respiratory arrest or cardiac arrest is one of those times.
__________________
Epilido

02 Gtan
?Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter and those who matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss
epilido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 06:11 AM   #37
eap OP
El Adventurero Solitario
 
eap's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland, Least Coast USA
Oddometer: 3,233
Quote:
Originally posted by epilido
CPR cert is a great stepping stone. Just don't use it. If you ever see me down and think I need CPR or more airway help than opening the airway PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE.
SNIP...
Unless there is danger of loss of life to the injured or rescuer do not move the patient. SEND FOR HELP! Stop major bleeding with direct pressure. Keep them warm and as comfortable as possible.

There are some times when it is better to be dead than a vegitable or very crippled IMHO. Trauma from a motorcycle accident that causes respiratory arrest or cardiac arrest is one of those times.
That's pretty heavy stuff EPI, but please don't ask me not to administer CPR - I think that's what you said.

If the 1st responding person at your crash has the training and confidence level and you don't have a pulse and/or ain't breathing - you're likely going to get CPR. Your relatives can pull the plug later if you survive.

Of course with the motorcycle crash, you have that extra issue about helmet removal - IMO in most cases that will make CPR impossible anyway and if you weren't wearing a helmet, there is likely not to be a head to administer CPR to.

As ususal I don't speak from experience - thankfully I never have had to administer CPR and hope never to have the opportunity. When you take the class they pretty much level with you that CPR has not been all that effective as far as survival rates - this is important for the responder to realize since they can suffer from "PTS" and blame themselves for the loss of a patient.

In addition to the basics of spinal immobilazation and blood loss control along with basic shock management that EPi refers to - CALL FOR HELP - 911 -Sounds obvious but they're going to drill that into your head... Got to get that response time down...

EPI - do you where one of those helmet tags that says "Do Not Remove.... and Don't Adminster CPR.... " alng with your organ donor card?
__________________
eap '14 R1200GS-LC Thunder Grey
Chesapeake Bay Watershed, Surf Your Watershed
Save the Bewbies
"Over the Mountains Of the Moon, Down the Valley of the Shadow, Ride, boldly ride," -From 'Eldorado', Edgar Allen Poe (1849) http://www.eapoe.org/works/poems/eldrdoa.htm
eap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 06:32 AM   #38
epilido
Thawing Adventurer
 
epilido's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Toledo Oh
Oddometer: 281
I usually don't wear the helmet at all. Personal choice. Yes for me please do not do CPR. I think that people have a misconception that you can save a life. People who are dead from trauma most often stay that way. The do not resucitate, living will and organ donor paperwork are all with my insurance paperwork under the seat. The cops always seem to find the insurance and registration. Also If I know that the relatives are going to pull the plug later( as I hope mine do) the hospital surgical and transportation costs are something that I do not intend to burden my insurance company or family with.
__________________
Epilido

02 Gtan
?Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter and those who matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss
epilido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 08:20 AM   #39
Rad
Just me
 
Rad's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Santa Cruz, Calif
Oddometer: 12,160
Quote:
Originally posted by epilido
I think that people have a misconception that you can save a life.
:eek:


Quote:
Originally posted by epilido
CPR cert is a great stepping stone. Just don't use it. If you ever see me down and think I need CPR or more airway help than opening the airway PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE.
Epilido

From both training and personal experience I know rescue breathing/CPR works. I have been involved in only 3 cases where I had to make choices to administer rescue breathing/CPR or not. In one case I chose not to due to the fact that I had no pocket mask and the kids mouth/throat/airway was covered with model glue from the paper bag he was inhaling it from. I called 911, he died. In both the other cases (drowning victim and a heart attack victim) I administered rescue breathing/CPR and revived both and both individuals lived.

I suggest ya get a medical alert bracelet with DNR on it
Rad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 10:39 AM   #40
Red Bull
Studly Adventurer
 
Red Bull's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sonoma, CA - USA
Oddometer: 799
Yep, I have done CPR three times, two were successful revisions (whew! it's really hard work after more than 10 minutes!) the other was someone I came across who was "down" for an unknown time, and was very blue before I got there... likely to be too late.

If you were to collaspe I am OBLIGATED by law to provide aid, so unless you have a DNR (do not ressutate) ID, then expect to see my smiling face when you wake-up!

I think the point you bring-up is very important to people who are eager to help, but do not have the complete training, and would their-by risk further injury by subjecting the "client" to whatever they administer. SO the point is, get "some" level of training. I bet you use it sooner than you think.
Attached Images
 
__________________
--- John

John@MyHomeWebSite.com
'97 BMW R1100 GSA "RED BULL" - Sonoma, CA
'Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Red Bull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 12:56 PM   #41
epilido
Thawing Adventurer
 
epilido's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Toledo Oh
Oddometer: 281
rad- redbull... hmmm I dont want to get into a validity of cpr debate. Both of your experiances are very differeent from published national stats on cpr. Your presented cases are non trauma. I was speaking about the need for cpr or rescue breathing due to trauma.
__________________
Epilido

02 Gtan
?Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter and those who matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss
epilido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 12:57 PM   #42
Stephen
Beastly Adventurer
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Oddometer: 3,181
Kit stuff; wisdom from the paddling world

First, I got one of these because it's small, inexpensive, and leans towards the road rash side rather than the "booboo" side in its contents. The antacids and ibuprofen and sunscreen and such go in my toilet kit or fanny pack, depending on how crappy I feel when I start the day.

I took a three-hour scratch-the-surface class given by Dr. Forgey on wilderness medicine. The first thing he talked about was the diff between "first aid" and "wilderness med": first aid assumes you can get real medical services before something worse happens; wilder med assumes you may be days away from help. As Advriders, we could be in both situations in the course of a ride, so knowing both might be smart.

First rule of whitewater rescue: The best rescue is self-rescue.

I chose the kit because it would give me a chance to get going again, get back, get somewhere. It's not optimal. Sam splint, painkillers needed. More training not a bad idea.

Don't get me started, either, on the whole meds thing. I had a doctor--one of my best friends--tell me that taking oxycodan was bad because I might hurt myself more trying to walk out of the woods with an injury. He said it wouldn't help if I broke a leg or even twisted an ankle badly, and that it would knock me out anyway and make me incapable of walking far, or riding a bike. I replied that further injury beat the livin' shit outta dyin' of dehydration or exposure (and yes, I take water with me), and that having broken bones before, I could tell him that codeine makes walking with a broken arm MUCH easier, and that if he thought two vicodins render me unable to move, he needed to try some. Pissed me off. Well, he's my friend, lives too distant to be my doc. That role is filled by a ridin' buddy, ex-USAF; few illusions there.

Interesting thread.
Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2002, 01:10 PM   #43
Red Bull
Studly Adventurer
 
Red Bull's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: Sonoma, CA - USA
Oddometer: 799
Quote:
Originally posted by epilido
rad- redbull... hmmm I dont want to get into a validity of cpr debate. Both of your experiances are very differeent from published national stats on cpr. Your presented cases are non trauma. I was speaking about the need for cpr or rescue breathing due to trauma.
Geez, there goes my vision! I'm seeing tripple! Your right. most other EMT's I know have not had even one revived client. In all cases, these were pedistrians who just collasped while I happend to be near by. NOT trauma caused by motorcycle, so my appologies if I confused anyone on CPR on motorcycle accidents. (Although, statisticly, we Beemer riders are a tad "old" and in the carriadic age high possibility. Perhaps too may hot dogs at rallys!
__________________
--- John

John@MyHomeWebSite.com
'97 BMW R1100 GSA "RED BULL" - Sonoma, CA
'Where ever you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Bonzai
Red Bull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2002, 07:54 PM   #44
Sig
dtown
 
Sig's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Detroit, MI. USA
Oddometer: 236
Quote:
Originally posted by fish
I wanna hear from Sig on this topic. Paging Dr. Sig...Dr. Sig, to the Trauma Ward please!

The Doctor is IN!

Well from reading all of this it looks like the basics are covered.
K12RSSteve's kit looks pretty good. the large abdominal dressing works well for larger areas of road rash, etc. I might add something to clean/wash out wounds like betadine or hydrogen peroxide (external use only). Also a Triple antibiotic ointment is a must! ...Most of the hiker type kits look nice.

Training: This is a good thing. you might not have the time or money to take an EMT class, but even a advanced first aid class is better than nothing. At least learn the basics: airway support / rescue breathing / CPR, bleeding control, splinting, and treatment for shock.

Nitrile gloves: Ive use these, and even carry a pair while on duty. they seem a little more durable than latex, but are usually used on people allergic to latex.

Quote:
Originally posted by fish:
Wow. Do you really think you could administer stitches in the field?
interesting topic. instead of sutures you might check out info on closing bad lacerations using superglue (cyanoacrylate). there is some interesting info here: http://www.blacklock.com/pdf/%20DT12-04-01e.pdf or do a search on the internet. of course you wouldn't put it in the cut itself - just a dab here and there to close the wound. SteriStrips and butterfly bandages also work well.


Quote:
Originally posted by K12RSSteve:
Yes a Saqer splint would be nice......But with the space limitations on a bike only the basics are permitted.
Well its probably not practical for a bike kit, but Kendrick makes a nice lightweight traction splint...
The KTD comes complete with a convenient 9" X 3" storage pouch and easy-to-follow instructions. Weighs less than 20 ounces. Perfect for Wilderness Rescue, Bush Rescue, Ski Patrol and SWAT Medics.

Quote:
Originally posted by epilido:
.... Yes for me please do not do CPR......The do not resucitate, living will and organ donor paperwork are all with my insurance paperwork under the seat.
Even that probably isnt enough documentation for medical reponders in most states, not do CPR on you. I know in my area you would have to have a court document that is notorized.

-Sig, Firefighter / Paramedic. (ie: streetdoc) :):
Sig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2002, 02:07 AM   #45
doc riverz
anatra di seduta
 
doc riverz's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2002
Location: The Sunny side of the SF Bay Area.
Oddometer: 4,351
Bluhduh Obligation to treat in SF -- Not!

Quote:
Originally posted by Red Bull in San Francisco
If you were to collaspe I am OBLIGATED by law to provide aid

Sorry, no offence, but I'm gonna have to throw the Bull Shit flag on that one.

You, or any other citizen, have no legal obligation what so ever in the state of California to do CPR or provide any other aid to anybody whether they are dying or not.

Whether you have a moral obligation is another matter. :)):

Now, if you were *on duty* as a working EMT or paramedic and you on-viewed or were called to the scene of a patient collapse then you would have an obligation to render aid. Having said that, if the person down became so because of blunt trauma and they had no pulse, were apneic (not breathing) and asystolic (flat line on an EKG) then in San Francisco, Alameda (ALCO) and San Mateo Counties you could cease or not start resuscitation efforts.

The unfortunate fact, borne out by numerous medical literature, is that patients in blunt trauma arrests have less then a 0.1% chance of survival. Thus, it is *not* worth the various costs to society (at least according to the EMS agencies in the afore mentioned counties and I suspect many others) to expend the effort and risk the lives of the EMS crew and that of the general public to drive code-3 (lights and siren) to the scene and then to the trauma center for a patient that has virtually no chance of survival.

As a point of clarification, penetrating trauma arrests (gunshots, stabbings, impalements) are another matter. Those patients will get rescue breathing, chest compressions, intubation, rapid transport, large bore IVs en route, etc. Since those patients have a much greater chance of survival, assuming they are transported to a level 1 trauma center and treated surgically.

So, if I ever get hit by a truck while riding and Im not breathing and have no pulse when you arrive, please dont do CPR on me either. Thanks.

BTW, if you are ever in ALCO and need to take a patient to a trauma center and you have a choice, take Highland Hospital. Their ER kicks serious ass. Eden tries.

Dave
SF medic number 756 (retired)
ALCO/CAL medic number PO-2934
IAFF local 55
It don't matter what you ride, just *that* you ride.

doc riverz screwed with this post 08-04-2002 at 11:25 AM
doc riverz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 01:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014