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Old 09-04-2003, 08:44 AM   #61
nomiles
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You do good work Doc! Thanks!

I bet you really wanted to be a Gynocologist when you were a little boy, right? (I know I did)
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:36 AM   #62
Jman
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Eek

Where is the saw for roadside amputation?

Wow man that is quite the kit. If I crash I want you to respond.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:42 AM   #63
doc riverz
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Quote:
Said nomiles:
You do good work Doc! Thanks!
Thanks, bro!
Quote:
I bet you really wanted to be a Gynocologist when you were a little boy, right?
Not a chance! I want to look at the holiest of holies as a place of joy,goodness and happy feelings. Not some old, nasty-ass infested work area. IOW, gynos don't get to pick the p***y they work on.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:45 AM   #64
doc riverz
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Quote:
Said FUglyK:
Where is the saw for roadside amputation?...
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Old 09-04-2003, 12:30 PM   #65
frewhl
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eye wash in squeeze bottle

everything else is very minimal
i need to up grade.

anyone carry a fire exstinguisher?
the chef gave me one about the size of a shave cream can,i have not brought it along yet.
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Then I headed over to where my girlfriend works. Greg, the boss, followed us outside and kept trying to tell me about how he went to Las Vegas one time on a motocycle. I was like, "oh-kay, that's great Greg."

Just back from Prudhoe Bay, IMO it was really worth the trip, AK is a beautiful place & you need lots of time to take it all in. I'm looking forward to returning & exploring some places i didn't have time to ride.RIP Ron Melton
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Old 09-04-2003, 06:22 PM   #66
DR DRB
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I didn't review the whole thread so apologies if this is redundant.

It's the ability to improvise that separates the heroes from the observers, not the amount of equipment. Two safety pins and a t-shirt make an arm sling. One or two safety pins can attach an unconcious person's tongue to his lower lip, thus maintaining his airway (it works!). Duct tape and a Sam Splint (or a stick of wood) can immobilize most fractures. Etc., etc.

There are several excellent wilderness medicine conferences, scattered around the country in places such as Snowmass, Tahoe and Big Sky. If someone was interested in an excellent ride and a little learning he could just wander into one of these. None of the ones I have attended do any sort of checking as to whether or not one is a paid participant. Most will have a lecture or two regarding improvisation, as well as some more technical subjects for those who are interested.

Best regards,
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Old 09-04-2003, 09:11 PM   #67
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Hi Ed,

Try Tour Kit www.hhjm.com/jff/jfoooo1.htm. This was written up sometime ago in Motorcycle Consumer News as a best buy in First Aid Kits. The website has a list of contents which is pretty extensive. I believe it can be had for about $49.00.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:03 PM   #68
doc riverz
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Quote:
Said DR DRB:
...It's the ability to improvise that separates the heroes from the observers, not the amount of equipment...Best regards,
Dave
Total agreement. However, since I have space in my car and have access to the stuff, I figger WTF. The most important 1st aid tool is your brain.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:20 PM   #69
fish
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I'll ride with Doc anyday! he's my other hero.
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Old 09-06-2003, 06:39 PM   #70
eap OP
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Re: Good Samaritan Act

Quote:
Said K12RSSteve:
snip So I won't be out there doing trach.s or stitching you guys up if you go down hard.
... and I appreciate that Steve, I do ...
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Old 09-06-2003, 09:02 PM   #71
doc riverz
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Quote:
Said fish:
I'll ride with Doc anyday! he's my other hero.
I suddenly feel uneasy. Yer skeering me, man!
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Old 09-06-2003, 10:18 PM   #72
mutineer
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the legal side of it

Here is the very rough sketch of how the legal end of it goes, it ain't legal advice, just a very rough idea of how tort law works for Samaritans. It takes seven years of college and a slightly masochistic personality to become a damn lawyer, so you can’t expect a whole lot in a few paragraphs. There, now that my ass is covered here is the deal.

If you offer help to someone do not exceed your training.

For someone to successfully sue you then you pretty much have to fuck up somehow. Please for the love of all that is holy do let this turn into a thread of urban myths about burglars who got shot robbing homes and then won a million dollars from the theft victim - they are all bullshit, even the one that your neighbors swears up and down happened to his cousin’s best friend.

When rendering aid if you have only CPR training then don't decide you have the skills to do a tracheotomy there in the woods and you ought to be fine. If you have a higher skill set, like some of the medics and Docs who contributed so far, you can exercise your skill and render aid as need requires, and your skill level permits. If you have no training go get help, because you are more likely to do harm than to help, and that is what will get you sued. If you make a judgment call, and you have the skills to justify making the call the law lets you be wrong and not lose a lawsuit.

The more training you have the higher a skill level you will be expected to exert once you begin rendering air, but even the best Dr. in the world can just walk by your bleeding body, decide not to help and you cannot sue her because she ain't got no damn duty to help. No one has a duty to render aid under tort law, but if you begin to render aid you need to do so to the best of training and ability and not quit until new help arrives, help is no longer necessary, circumstance or exhaustion prevents you from continuing, or you are relieved by another helper.

Here is the catch, even when you are right, there is nothing to stop some shitbag ambulance chasing hack from filing a suit, he just won't win. If you never want to risk getting sued, then never help. I am just glad most people here don't think that way. I am also glad the guys who say will help are out there.

If you get jammed up because you offered someone medical help than call me and I will offer you some free legal first aid.

mutineer screwed with this post 09-06-2003 at 10:25 PM
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Old 09-07-2003, 08:31 AM   #73
LVR
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Hummmmmmm

Curious comments: we have everything from basic kits to an attempt to duplicate an emergency room.

I believe that you need to step back and ask, specifiically, "What is your goal with this kit?"

You should be in "first responder" mode if you are dealing with someone that you do not know. You stabilize the victim and turn them over to the physicians in the Trauma Center. Heroic measures beyond your training at the side of the road could be deemed practicing medicine without a license and may well not be covered by Good Samaritan laws.

My personal -bottom line- opinions for the blunt trauma victim:

1. To render any significant (life sustaining) assistance, you need to arrive within 2 minutes.

2. The assistance that will make a difference is to open the airway which is an easy procedure and one that you may wish to learn.

3. If you feel that CPR needs to be performed in a victim of severe blunt trauma, the patient is most likely dead. Usually, the only severe blunt trauma patients that survive are the ones that make it to the ED essentially under their own power or with minimal help. What these patients need is fluid in their arteries. Chest compressions move fluid in the blood vessels, but if there is no fluid in the blood vessels, compressions do little.

Disclaimer: This should not be interpreted to discourage CPR. If you have the training and feel that the patient should have CPR by all means give it a try.

As an anatomical idiosyncrasy, the heart floats in the chest on the aorta (main artery from the heart to the body) and in a rapid deceration injury, the heart keeps moving in relation to the heart and you sustain a high pressure tear in your plumbing, lose blood pressure, lose consciousness, become brain dead and die in a matter of a few minutes.

In addition, if you were to sustain this type of injury by falling off the roof of the ED, you most likely would die as well.

You can overcome small tears with rapid, massive amounts of IV fluids and blood and then immediate surgery, but this is not usually available at the side of the road.

Now if you get shot or have bleeding from a limb or an internal organ, the bleeding is slower and if the above treatment is instituted, you can survive.

But, again, this is not "side of the road" treatment.

So, KISS (keep it simple sucker), just open the airway- that may save a life.

Other comments:

1. If you need to take narcotics to be able to ride, you shouldn't be riding.

2. You can be more aggressive in your treatment of riding companions especially in third world countries.

3. I carry a few different types of antibiotics (cholera, tourista, malaria, skin, pneumonia, UTI...), some splints mostly for fingers, lidocaine for injection, various sutures for both surface and deep lacerations, non steroidals (no narcs) and a few surgical tools in additon to a few dressings.

4. Parachute cord makes a good figure-of-eight splint for clavicular (collarbone) fractures. Loop around the front of both shoulders and tie in the back. You'll need to put padding in front of the shulders becasue the cord will dig in.

Do I use these treatments for non-companions? No. Do I stop for accidents if it appears that more than 5 minutes have elapsed and there is adequate help on the scene already? No.

4. Here is an emergency suture kit for use in remote locations where no reliable emergency help is available: Get an 18 ga hypodermic needle (available at farm stores) and some light monofilament fishing line. Ice is a very effective anesthetic. Clean the area with your Betadine or Hibiclens and push the 18 ga through just as you would sew a tear, then thread the monofilament through the needle, remove the 18 ga and tie the monofilament with a square knot about 4 or 5 times (monofilament likes to untie).

I'd suggest buying a fresh pig's foot, cause a few lacerations and repair them before you try this for the first time in Laos.

Having said that, I will also say that, to the chagrin of most physicians, most lacerations will heal extremely well with minimal scarring without sutures (secondary intention). If you are having to decide whether or not the laceration needs suturing, it most likely does not.

Disclaimer: these recommendations are personal opinions and intended for licensed physicians only who should use their own professional judgement in the context of a particular patient's presentation. They not for use by untrained individuals. Any trauma victim should be safely and rapidly transported to legitimate medical providers by a trained ambulance crew for professional treatment.

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Old 09-07-2003, 11:23 PM   #74
Red Bull
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LVR... I can tell you have had some "field fun" too! I will not post what I carry... but I also share your opinion about first response, but in remote travel, my "extensive" kit has (literally) saved lives.

When ever I am overseas, I update my meds (that I can not get here in the US with out Doctor's raising a few brows) and make sure I keep up to date skills and meds!

Funny, your recommendation on a Pigs foot is SPOT ON! How have someone shake it back and forth when your trying to do it! Whenever I had to do this their was not time for any local anesthesia.

When in the US, I do not expect to need these... last time was a week (down) the Grand Canyon to close an forehead cut from an oar... turned out to be a clean job. Thank GOD... I can imagine a law suite otherwise. Not something you want to do the first time in the field!

Most of the time my med-kit is opened for minor cuts, chill packs, re-hydration and aspirin. BTW- My sleeve on my jacket and a label on my helmet contain vital medical information in case (when?) I crash and may not be able to speak. Having been first to respond many times, I recall the need for this information ASAP... and I make sure I keep my med kit up-to-spec.

In general, I would NOT recommend this level of medical attention in the USA... even resuscitation is something I think about if I do not know how long they have been down, yet I have a "responsibility" to provide aid ... real subjective issue. You will know what to do if you have been trained and experienced. Nothing like extensive training in Washington D.C. General ER's on a weekend night shift! Shit... I was attacked by clients there!
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:46 PM   #75
Law Dawg (ret)
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Poor man's kit.

I'm very much an amateur at medical stuff, but in my occupation disasters tend to happen at the worst times. They also tend to be BAD!

I have designed a poor man's kit that works well enough for me.

1- Wrapped sanitary napkins. Yeah, I know....however they absorb mass quantities of blood, and the plastic wrapper can be used for stuff like stopping a sucking chest wound (been there done that). Also regular medical gauze.

2- Flexible tape, regular medical tape, and duct tape. Use your imagination and apply the best adhesive to the problem.

3- Hydrogen peroxide and Neosporin.

4-Super glue. Used, after cleaning the small wound well with the peroxide, like stitches. Large wounds need to be sealed with the napkins and taped.

5-Eye drops.

6-Asprin, Motrin, etc.

7-A pocket mask (I use the Laerdal) so you can do respirations without actual mouth to mouth. You may not want to lip lock some of the people you could encounter.

8-Scissors, pocket knife,etc. (I prefer the pocket knife,more useful)

9-Rubber gloves.

10-Cell phone.

11-kept in zip lock bags in a U.S. Jeep canvas tool bag(er two).


Before you jump in, go to a Red Cross First Responder class. Learn first aid and CPR, and I mean LEARN it! The above kit is basic but with a little common sense and using other normally available stuff you will get by. Do not forget that you will not always be able to keep your victim alive. Do your best and move on! Seen alot of death and saved a few. "All men die, not all men really live." Mel Gibson (Brave Heart).

RWLWFWH(Hey, hey, hey.....Let's be careful out there people!)
Dawg
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